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Guitarist_John
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 04:24 pm |
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[Taken from Daily Accountability]
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Myself:
Oh, and another thing. This question has been posing itself in my mind lately, and it still confuses me to an extent. My best friend and I talk about p/m and how we deal with it. Both him and I believe P is evil and must be avoided at all costs. However, on M our opinions differ a little bit. He seems to think that M isnt necessarily something to be 'completely' avoided. He associated it with drinking and driving: dont do both at the same time (or else you'll end up cold and half-dead in some ditch).
Then again, thats not a very good analogy  .
Ah, it's difficult to explain. I'll speak again about this later, for now I must go.
God bless.
John.
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Holdsworth:
Guitarist_John, its good you have a friend you can talk with about this stuff occasionally.
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Guitarist63 (G63):
John - this subject will always cause speculation because of the differing opinions on it, some for and against. So long as you know what's right for you, that's the main thing.
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Wilderness Voice (WV):
Dear John:
You may want to help out your friend by reminding him that the Bible is full of warnings against masturbation. I've read posts from time to time that say it’s not discussed and they just don't know the scriptures or God's nature.
Masturbation is referred to as “inordinate affection”; to concupiscence which is sexual sensuality of the mind and body. People who do it are referred to “abusers of themselves with mankind,” and “lovers of their own selves.” Uncleaness is the state of mind having filthy thoughts and images. Some give themselves to masturbation to the point they have no natural affection. It is a work of darkness which is a shame to speak of what is done is secret.
Col.3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
1Thes.4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Cor.6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
2Tim.3:1-4 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Eph.5:1-7,11-12 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
[3] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
[4] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
[6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
[7] Be not ye therefore partakers with them. [11] And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
[12] For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
There are many more scriptures.
Remind him that God is not mocked and not to be deceived.
I trust this will help you.
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G63:
W V - you have misinterpreted scripture. There is not a single verse that mentions masturbation. None of those verses you site speak of it.
You are sincerely misled.
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WV:
There is not a single verse that mentions homosexuality, pornography, or voyeurism either, using those exact phraseologies, but they are nevertheless sins and known by other names and descriptions.
Masturbators are lovers of their own selves and at the very least they are taking pleasure in unrighteousness.
It is one of the signs that we are in the end times - the last days. In fact, in the scripture cited above, it is the first sign listed as evidence that we are in perilous times: the Great Plague of Masturbation: Men Shall be Lovers of Their Own Selves. Men play both parts of an illicit sex act - the perpetrator and the receivor.
If people want to believe that masturbation is not a sin, then so be it.
If you say that I'm mislead, then I tell you that I was mislead right out of the sin. These scriptures helped me realize how God saw it. If people refuse to find anything in the Word to help them get rid of their sin, then so be it.
I think it is high-time we woke up and smelled the coffee.
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"In the world you will have trouble, but I leave you my peace that where I am there you may also be." - Jesus
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Guitarist_John
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 04:28 pm |
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Holdsworth:
Hi Wilderness Voice
Firstly, I don't want to defend 'sinful' action at all.
I am happy that you have found these Bible verses helpful in you getting free from habitual behaviour.
I think it is probably wrong and indeed perhaps dangerous to start speculating 'end times'. we are told to live as if each day would be the last day but nobody knows or will have a hint of knowing when this world will 'pop its clogs' so to speak. could be tomorrow, could be another 100000 years, could be loads more. Heck, man might even be able to send spacecaft to a distant planet and start living there as well before the shop closes. Not that this would make any difference as if God is God he owns the whole universe.
You said
Masturbators are lovers of their own selves and at the very least they are taking pleasure in unrighteousness. It is one of the signs that we are in the end times - the last days.
In that case we have been in the end times since man discovered that he could 'pleasure himself' which I think was long before Jesus turned up. Perilous things have also been happening since the Earth opened shop.
It is also I think unhelpful to link so much of the Bible to specific actions such as masturbation. I do agree that the Bible talks of 'selfish and self absorbed behaviour' as well as sexual immorality in general being against the will of God for mankind.
The debate will go on and on
what am I saying?
example: 1. I fall to masturbation, I feel bad and alienated from God because of guilt and shame, so I have to find it in myself to say sorry to JC if I can.
2. I manage to overcome temptation and feel 'extremely pleased' with myself and perhaps let 'pride' build up inside of me.
In both cases I fall short of Gods will as I have become 'self absorbed' In both cases I have sinned.
For me personally I find Bible warnings both helful and unhelpful. I just don't think I can get through this life without one more selfish action, or without losing my temper, or perhaps occasionally swearing when I bang my thumb with the hammer. I try, boy do i try but I will fall short however hard I try.
I just wanted to add a balance here and in no way am defending any sin.
Grace: is the one thing that makes me hang on and find faith and not give up trying to please God. There are many verses about Gods Love in the Bible which I always think it wise to include alongside verses such as those you listed above.
If I am wrong in anything I say here, please jump in and tell me.
Holdsworth
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WV:
Holdsworth:
The bible mentions many, many sins quite specifically - usually describing exactly what it is that someone does. Resisting and triumphing over temptation may result in pride - it should result in someone thankful to God for the great Grace he has shed upon them in giving them the strength to do it. It doesn't come from self.
God's Love could be mentioned such as "If ye Love me, keep my commandments." and "If ye abide in me, I will abide in you." Love died for sin and because of sin. God is one and there is no separation at all between God's Love and God's Wrath.
It is in trying to separate the characteristics of God one from another that we end up with a recipe for sickness. Not accepting His Justice, His Judgment, His Wrath - is refusing His Correction. God is not a syrupy sweet Love with no strength in it.
If we wish to receive His Love, then we should also be willing to receive His Warnings and believe that He really means it. This is what is meant by God is not mocked and that we'll reap what we sow.
These things should lead us to repentance, not justification and comforting of ourselves in our sins. We are told to repent and be converted, not to repent and go right back to it. We are warned that this is as a dog returning to its vomit.
The Love message that would correspond to that, is that when you really mean it and God sees that you are truly sick of the sin, He will mercifully lift you out of the vomit and cause it to be that you'll never return. That would be a perfect example of the Love of God in action - allowing the Prodigal son to become so sick of his wayward life, that he comes in brokeness and repentance back to the Father and will never return to that life again.
This is the hope that you have - of going and sinning no more. Just like Jesus said to Mary Magdalene and she never went back to prostitution and fornication again but became an adoring and obedient follower of Jesus.
Holdsworth, Jesus Love brings us to obedience - not disobedience in which we're promised that the wrath of God shall come on those children who disobey.
These words are hard. But truly accepting and believing the hard things of the bible is letting the Sharp Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God, cut out the evil of our hearts.
Love, Comfort, and Peace come when Mercy has been received. It is the peaceable fruit of righteousness brought about by being chastised by God. If we continually live in unrighteousness, then we have not received that correction. Wanting to only hear the sweet things of the bible is refusing to receive the correction.
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Holdsworth:
God is not a syrupy sweet Love with no strength in it.
I never said he was and the whole idea that he is turns me right off, I was just sugesting a balance.
And I totally agree, just as Christianity is not guarantee of safety from harm or illness in this world just because of a full commitment to JC
It doesn't come from self Again, I didn't sugest it did, but all too often it does, and some Christians have made a right mess of things in History when they have tried to do things by 'self' and getting all high and mighty and self righteous.
It is in trying to separate the characteristics of God one from another that we end up with a recipe for sickness Wanting to only hear the sweet things of the bible is refusing to receive the correction.
I also never sugested this either. Again, I was just sugesting a balance.
As I said before I am not defending my or anyones sin or wrongdoing here.
Kind Regards
Holdsworth
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Truthseeker:
Gentlemen:
This is an accountability thread, in the accountability forum. Not that Scriptural debate is ever encouraged on this site, but if you are going to engage in it, this is not the place. If any wish to pursue this line of discussion, try the Masturbation, General, Other Topics, or The Church forums.
WV, in interests of accuracy, the only instances I find in either KJV or NIV Gospels of Jesus telling someone to "go and sin no more," are:
John 5:14, regarding the man healed by the pool of Bethesda
John 8:11, regarding the unnamed woman caught in the act of adultery, about whom the scribes and Pharisees asked Jesus whether or not she should be stoned
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WV:
Truthseeker,
Oh there are many, many times we are told to not do what we formerly did. Such as Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole, steal no more. In that same Chapter it discusses habitual sexual sin as not even being a part of a Christian's life at all. That is just shouldn't be there and assumes that any Christian has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
This particular post started only in response to a young Christian man who posted in this thread that he was talking to a friend who was questionning whether masturbation was a sin at all or not. Of course I would expect more mature Christians to attempt to answer him with helpful guidance to set him on the right path and not be led astray by such thinking.
But as you say, the overall discussion of these scriptures would probably be best somewhere else.
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Myself:
Hi everybody.
Thankyou, those of you who responded to my quesion. Regarding what WV said, I must say that I agree with WV. I've always known in my heart that it is a sin, but my mind isn't satisfied with simply 'knowing' and wants to know 'why' and all that. The Bible is, needless to say, rather confusing sometimes. Sometimes, you have to take what it says literally, and other times you have to think outside the box (or simply understand what the Greek says). There are plenty of verses that at least imply, if not cover the whole thing(such as, flee sexual immorality). Anyway, thankyou, for responding. I'll speak to my friend about this again with this in mind.
And regarding what Holdsworth said, I believe that it is possible to know *around* the time Jesus may return, simply by observing the abundance of prophecies written in the Bible and comparing them to recent events. In fact, one important one is on the verge of being fulfilled. The one I am speaking about is the Ezekiel 38-39 prophecy about a war between Israel and Iran (and others backing Iran). Ever heard some of the outrageous comments Mahmed Ahmedinijad has made about Israel? And this war thats prophecied has never happened before.
But that is something that is best spoken of in the 'Off Topics' section.
Well, I spoke to my friend, and he is dismayed. Him and I have believed that M is bad. Out of curiosity, he went and asked many of his friends around his age (late teens) regarding the subject and he has found no one who thinks masturbation is a sin. He finds this odd, especially among his Christians friends. When he told them he had held off from the M for 6 months straight, his friends said "My God, why?". Obviously, this made him really question this thing. In fact, these questions and such led him to end his 6 months of sobriety by M'ing once.
What bothers him is that the "dreams" tend to not come to him when he needs it most (as in, to have a nocturnal release).
I've told about the verses in the Bible, and he has read plenty verses himself. I think its a case of wondering, "If its so bad, why does everyone do it?". I think another thing he is wondering is that, if M is equal to fornication (now I'm not sure about that) then what will that mean spiritually, in the afterlife? I'm sure the answers are obvious, I just can't think of them now .
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"In the world you will have trouble, but I leave you my peace that where I am there you may also be." - Jesus
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Guitarist_John
Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 04:29 pm |
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Oh, sorry Truth Seeker. I only read your post after I already posted my latest post . I apologise.
How about all of you who want to answer my question(s) simply open or private message me, because it'd take too much time to transfer the entire length of the discussion to a seperate thread (either that or I'm too lazy).
...
Regarding the above, I decided to recant my laziness and go ahead and post seperate threads for the seperate questions.
Last edited on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 04:30 pm by Guitarist_John
____________________
"In the world you will have trouble, but I leave you my peace that where I am there you may also be." - Jesus
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Paulos
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Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 08:01 pm |
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Hello, Guitarist_John.
In answer to your question, the Bible nowhere mentions masturbation specifically. Nevertheless the majority of Christian ethicists down through history have had a negative view of the matter. The earliest medieval penitiential manuals (i.e., books for priests to consult when prescribing penances for those confessing sins) require lighter fasts for masturbators than for adulterers but clearly consider this an uncleanness. A long line of Catholic thinkers agree, including Thomas Aquinas, a post-Vatican II pontifical commission that produced the official document Personae humanae (1975), and the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church (parag. 2352). With this moral tradition Protestants were long in agreement, including Martin Luther (on 1 Corinthians 7:9), the Puritans, the Continental Lutheran theologian Helmut Thielicke,
the Princeton (presbyterian) scholar Otto A. Piper, the Anglican ethicist Herbert Waddams, and recent evangelical leaders such as reformed Baptist John Piper.
Since the sexual revolution of the 1960s, however, increasing numbers of Catholics, mainline Protestants, and evangelicals have softened their stance on this question, a shift chronicled among other points in Richard Quebedeaux, The Young Evangelicals: Revolution in Orthodoxy (1974).
Two biblical principles are more or less universally cited by those opposed to masturbation.
1. God intended sexuality to be a mutual, bonding experience for husband and wife (Genesis 1:27; 2:18-24), not a solitary indulgence by an individual. Masturbation, which separates sexual pleasure from its unitive and generative ends, seems contrary to the purpose of the creator.
2. We are not to allow ourselves to be enslaved by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12), yet masturbation tends strongly toward becoming at least a habit, and plays an important role in virtually all sexual addictions.
Most people's consciences are at best ambiguous about this, if not self-condemning. Yet Christians are to act in good "faith," or confidence that their actions please God, not in doubt (Romans 14:22-23).
Those Christians who condone or stop short of prohibiting masturbation sometimes see it as a developmental stage toward sexual maturity, or as a way of gaining self-understanding of how one's body functions that can be transferred to marital sexuality. These would argue that masturbation is a "lesser good" rather than an "evil alternative."
In 1 Corinthians 7:1-9, Paul assumes that a mature believer is either sexually active in marriage alone, or practices celibacy. While some urge that the Bible nowhere prohibits masturbation, it can also be urged that neither does the Bible recommend masturbation at 1 Corinthians 7:9, where the situation of a sexually frustrated single person is contemplated and we might have expected a word on masturbation if it were acceptable.
Some see masturbation as an innocent outlet for the sexual tension that can build up for those who have no other outlet in today's sexualized western societies. But while masturbation does undoubtedly relieve tension in the short term, it also stimulates the sexual faculty and leads into a cycle that can be hard to break. Those who have never masturbated rarely complain about this inexorable buildup.
On balance, I think the cons weigh heavier than the pros. But without a specific word on the subject in scripture, debate will probably continue. As has been pointed out by others, the Blazing Grace website was founded to support those who genuinely want to quit, not to provide a forum for those who want to discuss the theory.
Last edited on Thu Mar 27th, 2008 08:12 pm by Paulos
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guitarist63
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Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 08:14 pm |
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Maybe this can be the last post debating this subject. All the arguments have been put, not just on this thread.
Last edited on Thu Mar 27th, 2008 11:22 pm by guitarist63
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