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mike
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 06:34 pm |
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Mark, you've been warned before to drop the whole masturbation debate. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this issue, and leave it at that. If you want to debate masturbation, do it on another forum. Our primary purpose here is support for those who quit, not to provide an unending forum for debate for those who don't.
One more post on this topic will get you banned.
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Paulos
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Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 08:44 pm |
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I have no wish to debate masturbation. My inclination is very much to chime in with the drift of the comments by the moderators, though I am not sure I could articulate or argue clearly why I have the vague sense m. is wrong. Therefore I want to ask a question that might take this thread in a fresh direction. I will confess that in my 37-year struggle to overcome m. (having won through to "sobriety" for a year when I was 18 and again for about 4 months just after getting married in 1988), my Achilles' heel has been the lack of a knock-down biblical verse or reasoned argument strong enough to prove the point to me in my worst moments. It is altogether too easy, under the assault of temptation--and in my situation that is most of the time, although I am married (see my story under the Introduction category on this forum)--to bring up the seemingly merciful view of Dr. Dobson or of the many other Christian leaders who stop short of prohibiting this outlet. Dobson's valid concern is that we not set a standard higher than scripture does, a standard, repeated failure to measure up to which might drive some to despair. But knowing I am a sinner from birth by nature (Psa 51:5), I am hardly surprised if there is a yawning chasm between my rampant desires and God's good plan for my life; and what keeps me from despair is the confidence that God's gracious intent to conform me to the image of his Son is able to forgive and to rectify any number of repeated stumbles on my part (Matthew 18:21-2; Luke 17:3-4; Romans 5:20-21; 1 John 3:19-20). I am also conscious that my lingering doubts on the subject may be rationalizations or justifications for long-continued misconduct, what theologians call the noetic effects of sin, the impact of sin in darkening the mind. Perhaps the underbelly of a high view of scripture (which I share) is a naive biblicism that expects the Bible to have a simple verse that settles every particular question. But if we are to fall back on moral reasoning, what is the secure starting point? The Catholic tradition argues from natural law that m. is "an intrinsically and gravely disordered action" because it seeks pleasure outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2352). If true, then the chief proof-text in the Bible against m. would be Genesis 1:27: "Male and female he created them," together with 2:24: "they become one flesh." I want to put out the following question to anyone whose feels he has made some real progress in overcoming masturbation: What do you rely on as the decisive argument, the cogent proof, that m. is a moral evil to be resisted rather than a matter of indifference to God?
Last edited on Fri Aug 31st, 2007 09:14 pm by Paulos
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TimM
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Posted: Sun Sep 2nd, 2007 09:21 pm |
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Paulos,
More likely than not, this isn't really an answer to your question, but it's as much of an attempt as I can offer.
First, some disclaimers. For me, masturbation does not feel like it has been the center of my addictive behavior. Rather, voyeurism in the broad sense has been the core. Masturbation has been an accompanying behavior. My sense is that in most of the sex addicts I know, this pattern is reversed, and this may weaken my ability to speak to your question precisely. Also, I'm hardly an old-timer. I've been engaged in active recovery for about two and a half years, and at this point I've been continuously sober for only 21 months. Finally, I'm an Orthodox Christian and not an Evangelical; and so my use of the Bible may differ from that of the other participants and owners of this board, whose perspective I nevertheless honor and respect.
For me, the request for an iron-clad Biblical or rational argument against our behavior gives scripture and logic a greater weight than either really has in my own inner life. I'm clever enough to work my way around a proof text or an abstract philosophical conviction, and I'm committed enough to my addiction simply to ignore such evidence. After all, I have been willing to pursue my addiction despite the fact that it has separated me from God, despite the fact that it has caused my wife deep pain, despite the fact that it has deadened my soul, despite the fact that it has crippled my relationships with my children, despite the fact that it left my whole family with psychological scars, despite the fact that it has vastly interfered my career and left my job in jeopardy, and probably despite a dozen other things. If things like that won't stop me, does it really seem likely that a neat verse from Proverbs or a compelling argument from Gregory of Nyssa or Spinoza is going to do the trick?
To get serious about recovery, I needed something much more personal. I needed to be able finally to admit to myself that the pain was unbearable, and that I was finished. This happened for me in my early 50s.
Two and a half years ago, I was finally able to see that as the years wore on, I was inexorably building higher and higher walls separating me from my wife, from my kids, from the people around me (I'd say, "From my friends," but I really had no friends), and from God. I could see that as time moved on, my own soul was fragmenting into more and more bits - Tim at work, Tim at church, Tim the addict, Tim at home, . . . - and that I was becoming less and less a whole human being.
I looked at the record of my struggles, and could see that over 35 years, I had made no progress whatsoever toward sobriety. I knew I didn't have another 35 years left to try the experiment again.
I watched my oldest son getting ready to leave home for college on the other side of the country, and I thought, "I always wanted to be a good father, but he's now leaving home, never having seen me well."
I thought about suicide, and this helped me finally grasp that I had nothing left to lose. However frightened I might be of admiting weakness, of seeking help, of trusting God and other people, of confession to members of my family, this fear made no sense in someone contemplating throwing away his own life. Of course it was scary to admit my situation to others. Of course it was scary to be honest with my wife. Of course it was scary to walk into a 12-step meeting. Of course it was scary really to attempt to surrender absolutely everything to God. If those things turned out badly, though, I could always kill myself later and have lost nothing.
Those are the sorts of things that persuaded me to surrender and to reach out. It wasn't a reasoned argument or a verse of scripture. Perhaps I wish reason and the Bible held such power for me, but they don't.
To move toward recovery, I needed total inner emotional and spiritual despair. I also needed the hope that others had gone that way before, and that even for people like me, there was hope. I needed utter despair, and I needed a wild and crazy hope.
I don't think my experience is in any way atypical. I think we addicts walk along trying the same things again and again and failing in the same ways again and again until finally the pain becomes unbearable and we become able to surrender completely to the possibility of a new life. I don't think reason has much to do with it. I also don't think there is much of a way to hasten the inner process of capitulation. We suffer until we have suffered enough, and then we dare to trust. We keep going until our lives and the lives of the people around us have been wrecked sufficiently, and then we begin the terrifying work of building new lives.
As I said at the outset, this isn't the answer you asked for, Paulos. It's not an answer that I, who make a living teaching people to solve problems using reason, find natural. It is, however, very much an answer that describes the deepest parts of my own experience that I have yet been able to access. I didn't get to recovery through my mind, but through the innermost parts of my heart. You asked us to show you our minds, and I can't do that; but I have tried to show you my soul.
Tim M.
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Paulos
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Posted: Wed Sep 5th, 2007 04:02 pm |
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TimM, Many thanks for sharing. Yes, I will try to listen to my feelings about m. and
include consideration of personal experience in moral decision making. At rare times when I have adopted a more relaxed attitude toward m. for a few days its emerging tentacles have threatened to overwhelm my freedom. That counts strongly against it (1 Corinthians 6:12: "I will not be brought under the authority of anything"). It does seem that my voracious reading over several decades has covered just about everything scripture can offer on this topic, and has encountered the main moral arguments on both sides. My inability finally to settle and rest in a decision may be related to the self-deceitfulness of sin, or on the other hand to the fact that I have indeed been fighting it all the way because of my uneasy conscience, with partial success, and therefore have never yet sunk into a deep enough level of addiction to provoke a crisis leading to wholehearted repentance. My uncertainty is also related to the fact that I place a fair amount of weight on the sense of the ecclesiastical community as a corrective to individual opinion--a perspective you as Orthodox will appreciate--my own tendency being perhaps toward excessive scrutiny, and on this point the Protestant evangelical tradition in which I was raised presents a checkered picture. One can find writers who proscribe m. but they may be outnumbered by those who do not. All my adult life I have been reaching out for something solid to serve as the ground for consistent moral effort, and I am praying that the Holy Spirit will be merciful and grant full light before I become a victim of addiction at its worst.
Last edited on Wed Sep 5th, 2007 09:52 pm by Paulos
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Barb
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Posted: Wed Sep 5th, 2007 05:50 pm |
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Paulos and others
I will remind you of the words from Mike, the founder of the ministry, about the subject of masturbation and the debate of it:
Our primary purpose here is support for those who quit, not to provide an unending forum for debate for those who don't.
Barb
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Paulos
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Posted: Wed Sep 5th, 2007 09:48 pm |
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Thank you, Barb, for the reminder from the top of this page. The support I seek, precisely with a view to ending a shameful, decades-long cycle of quits followed by relapses, is at the foundational level of truth. To judge by the literature, including some references to others in Mike Genung's chapter about masturbation on this website, uncertainty about its moral status is widespread, especially in circles that have a high regard for scripture, which does not come forth with a single, simple verse bang on the subject. Temptation is always rooted in deception (the devil "is a liar and the father of lies," John 8:44). When the tempter comes and whispers, "Did God say ...?" (Genesis 3:2), I need to be able, like Jesus, to counter by saying, "It is written ..." (Matthew 4:4, 7, 10). From Genesis 1:27, "Male and female he [God] created them," and Genesis 2:24, "They [two] become one flesh," Jesus deduced with infallible logic that marriage is meant to be permanent (Mark 10:6-9), an inference that is contained in the premises but not apparent on a first, cursory glance. I have asked whether an equally cogent logic might lead from the same two verses to the conclusion (on a different topic) that m. is outside of and contrary to the divine purpose for sexuality, a conclusion also drawn, on the one hand, by the Catholic magisterium on the basis of natural law, and, on the other, by Mike Genung and a small number of other evangelical authors on the basis of a general understanding of marriage as a covenantal communion. Now I am inviting the community of faith as represented by contributors to this forum to come around me and help me overcome my last inch of doubt, inflicted on me partly by my own foolish lingering in m., by confirming that they too can see this implication in these statements of scripture. In the past I have believed I had my proof in other verses (e.g., Leviticus 18:10; Matthew 5:30), only to be convinced afterwards by the most detailed commentaries, and by e-mail consultations with biblical scholars, that those verses are not addressing my issue of m. as directly as I, with my urge to know, had thought. I place my proposal concerning Genesis 1:27 and 2:24, which is not intended as a challenge, in the context of this forum in the hope that the effect will be to strengthen, not erode, others' conviction as well as my own that m. is objectively and universally a moral evil, and not just a special problem that addicts alone have to avoid. That will clinch with a firm No the lead question whether m. without lust is possible. If others need emotional support, I am asking for cognitive support, and I am doing it for a constructive purpose.
Last edited on Wed Sep 5th, 2007 11:33 pm by Paulos
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TimM
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Posted: Wed Sep 5th, 2007 10:08 pm |
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Barb,
Thanks for the reminder. I'm certainly not trying to open this debate. I should probably have been clearer that although I don't think masturbation lies at the center of my own pathology, I do regard it as inappropriate behavior for me, and I have given it up. That it is not my central problem doesn't mean that it is not problematic. It certainly is the central problem of many of my friends.
Tim M.
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Esperanza
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Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 02:37 pm |
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| Romans 8
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Paulos
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Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 02:52 pm |
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Esperanza: Thank you for suggesting Romans 8. I take great encouragement from Romans 8:4, which says the Spirit of God enables us to succeed in keeping God's law. Also I am praying for a deeper experience of what it means to be led by the Spirit (verse 14): my hunch is the Spirit is back of our desires and motivation to do God's will. Is there another part of this chapter that you would like to draw to my attention?
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truthseeker
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Posted: Thu Sep 6th, 2007 05:31 pm |
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Hi Paulos,
I find Galatians 5 to be a powerful chapter about the power of yielding to the Holy Spirit. I heard a message recently on Eph. 5:18, which explained that being filled with the Sppirit is the same as being controlled by the Spirit. The picture is that filling ourselves with wine controls our behavior, to our detriment.
I wonder how your wife might answer the question, "Honey, I am praying and seeking to choose and exhibit in my daily life the fruit of the Spirit so I may more effectively love you as Christ loves the church. What choices of behavior would speak that most volubly to you?"
TruthSeeker
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Paulos
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 02:57 pm |
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Truthseeker: I asked A. last night. Her answer: More hugs on a daily basis. This doesn't come naturally for me, as my family of origin expressed togetherness by talking, never by hugs. But hugs I can supply. Also A. is a type-A personality, always on the go, usually moving by foot from here to there, never easy to catch and stop for a romantic moment. I shall make the effort.
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Paulos
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 04:12 pm |
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This thread has shifted from my question, which I want to renew and sharpen. First let me reiterate that my conscience is seeking understanding; I'm not wishing to be contrary. When I'm tempted to masturbate, I tend to abandon the view that this deed is a sin, the view toward which I lean, and rationalize instead the view that it is a natural outlet. Both views are well represented in literature on the subject by Christian authors, even conservative-evangelical ones, so there's never any difficulty lining up authorities and doing a mental flip-flop. I seek grounds to put a stop to this oscillation.
Briefly: Of the many shades of opinion out there, the two that stand out to me are these. (1) M. is universally and objectively a moral evil, because it violates the unitive end of sexuality (i.e. to join two persons in conjugal affection). (2) M., precisely because there is no relationship, does not violate any specific biblical injunction about sexual practice, all of which concern relationships; it is more comparable (for a man) to a nocturnal emission than to coitus, and may be viewed as a deliberate seminal emission as opposed to the haphazard, spontaneous ones of nature, therefore as an adjustment; because it lends itself to habitual practice there is a danger in it if done excessively, or as a comfort for non-sexual traumas; but it is a potentially noxious act that, like drugs, can be justified under controlled circumstances to relieve human misery. According to the first view, any human being who masturbates thereby sins. According to the latter, m. is off limits to sexual addicts or others who are deeply troubled by it (as an alcoholic must be a teetotaler), but the phenomenon itself would fall into the category of Romans 14:5, 22: "Let each be fully convinced in his own mind." "Blessed are those who have no reason to condemn themselves because of what they approve."
In the absence of a direct verse in the Bible to address the issue of masturbation, to what criterion do we turn for a decision? Do we go to 1 Corinthians 7:1-9, where marriage is the sole remedy for inflamed and unsatisfied sexual desire? Or do we go to 1 Timothy 4:4, where "everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, provided it is received with thanksgiving"?
To add a personal note. Neither my parents nor my church mentioned masturbation as I was growing up, so I was completely unprepared for the information that came my way in a health class at school when I was 12, and by 15 I had learned. The first book I turned to for guidance was a college health textbook on my father's shelf, which gave the usual secular line that m. is a developmental stage that will be transcended in marriage. On my confessing it to a youth pastor, he told me it was probably not to worry about as long as it was a physical act free of lust, citing Matthew 5:28 on the lust end. The first Christian book I consulted was Lewis Smedes' Sex for Christians. Smedes was a highly respected professor of ethics at Fuller Seminary, and concluded that m. is not a sin, that the guilt people feel over it is from other sources in their experience. Herbert Miles, in Sexual Understanding Before Marriage, recommends m. as part of a program of self-control, i.e., to forestall premarital sexual exploration. Finally, when, at the age of 30, I went to a Christian counselor employed by a large, respected evangelical church, after a few personal questions she decided my practice of m. was not a psychological problem. This is my legacy. It is not easy to overcome when the biblical material is so sparse, the arguments from principles are so indirect, there are different possible starting points for reasoning, and weighty authors are found on both sides.
I was raised in a very conservative home and church where dancing, moderate use of alcohol, playing cards, etc. were strictly prohibited. I need assurance that my queasy, negative feeling about masturbation, for which I seek some sort of scriptural explanation, is not just the reflex of a restrictive background and a scrupulous conscience, but comes from a true sense of moral reality. Otherwise, how can I know that my attempts to quit masturbating, which have never been fully successful for 37 years, are not a struggle against nature itself that is doomed to fail?
I'm suggesting that Genesis 1:26-8 and 2:18-24 can resolve the issue. These verses hold up an ideal in which man and woman are complementary. From this ideal Jesus argued the permanence of monogamy (Matthew 19:4-6). I would like to conclude the necessity of interpersonal communion in sexual intercourse. That would mean that m. is always wrong. Am I out on a limb, or do others see the same implication?
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guitarist63
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 08:28 pm |
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Paulos, I won't get into debate about the subject, except to point out that the evidence here and on other Christian forums is that many people have now stopped this habit. The evidence is definitely that you can quit and with God's help, you'll quit sooner than later. Remember Hebrews 12, verse 4, "You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin."
I am not sure if this is shedding of blood might also be a reference to Jesus sweating blood while He was praying in Gethsemane. Apologies for the diversion. There is a scientific explanation for this phenomenon. It's a very rare occurrence associated with the most extreme stress. Hematohydrosis. As you are clearly an academic, I recommend you read Dr Mark Eastman's article, The Agony of Love, which is biblically based analysis of the sufferings of the Saviour, scientifically informed. You can find the article through an internet search engine. Guitarist63
Last edited on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 08:01 pm by guitarist63
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Paulos
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2007 01:34 am |
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Guitarist63, Many thanks for passing on what you've found helpful about meditating on Jesus' sufferings. I'm aware of hematohydrosis (Greek for "blood"--haema "sweating"--hydrosis), as a physician once drew it to my attention. In Hebrews 12:4, what the recipients of the epistle are resisting is ostracization of Christians by the surrounding society (compare 10:32-4 and 13:13), and not to have shed blood means their community has not yet faced any actual martyrdoms as yet. So I'd hesitate apply this verse to our common sexual struggle. I do take encouragement from your words that some have indeed been able to overcome masturbation, and am continuing in prayer for you. By the way, does what I'm saying about Genesis 1:26-8 and 2:18-24 make sense to you?
Last edited on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 03:22 pm by Paulos
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guitarist63
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2007 08:07 pm |
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Paulos, glad the encouraging news about the success stories of those quitting, is helpful. Apologies for my misreading of the significance of the words in Hebrews 12, verse 4. I will read those other chapters and verses you reference with my concordance. The verses you quote in chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis are self-explanatory and are clearly focused on sexual union between man and woman (Adam and Eve). There is no talk of whether "m" is wrong and the word is never mentioned in the Bible but clearly the Bible speaks of sexual love between man and woman (man and wife) as God's intention and that is the way it should be. Genesis 2, verse 24 of course mentions wife. Guitarist63
Last edited on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 10:31 pm by guitarist63
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Paulos
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 01:03 am |
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Thank you, Guitarist63. That's the sort of feedback I need.
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bigj714
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 04:13 pm |
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yeah some people use eph 5:5 to condemn masurbation as uncleanness, and to say that people practicing it(unbroken pattern) will not inherit the kingdom of God...........so.......will masturbation keep someone out of heaven?
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Seeking God
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 05:02 pm |
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Dear J714,
Have you read http://www.blazinggrace.org/Whatlustdoes.htm
For me, lust has been a cruel master, stripped me off from joy, dignity, and everything I have. And, I think... those times were hellish enough...
Forgive me for asking this,
Are you afraid for your salvation?
In your mind, what do you think God feel for you? Angry? Neglecting?
Who do you picture God? As a Shepherd? As a Discipline Sergeant? As a Teacher?
Wish I can help you more...
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bigj714
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 05:05 pm |
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it doesnt matter what i think.....im only concerned with what Gods word has to say .
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Seeking God
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 05:21 pm |
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That is a very good reply J714.
Are you willing for His Word to change the way you see God?
Then read Isaiah 40
And then, will you share with me, How His Words, change the way you see Him?
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