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B
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Posted: Sun Nov 13th, 2005 12:03 am |
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I have heard Dr. Dobson and others say that masturbation with out fantasy is not sinful, and that in fact it is a normal part of most males' lives growing up. Though I have always seen "masturbating with out fantasizing" as a much better alternative to doing so while lusting, I am not so sure that it is amoral.
Recently, I have set goals for the number of days to go with out giving in, and then "masturbating with out fantasy" at the end (going seven days without it, then giving in, etc.). I did so thinking, "I know I am not going to win(I don't have an accountability partner yet) so I might as well give in "without lusting" before I get really aroused by something and am unable to control myself." I was actually able to masturbate with out fantasizing, however, lustfull thoughts did pop up in my head every now and then. Is this something that could potentially go away with experience?
Do any of you have any personal experience or advise you would like to share about "masturbation with out lust"?
Is there even such thing as "masturbation with out lust"? If so, is it sinful?
What about the notion that it is a lesser evil (which is what I currently think)of sorts? Is this an approach you would recomend for fighting addiction to masturbation?
Thanks.
____________________
O Christ, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world. Have Mercy upon us.
http://housemdiv.blogspot.com/
http://www.extremetheology.com/
http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com/
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ShadowWolf
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Posted: Mon Nov 14th, 2005 06:25 am |
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Hey B. I have been mastubating without fantasizing for a long time, so yes it is possible. But after long thought about it (because I have been doing it for several years) I believe it is wrong. For me, it is like a foothold for sexual thoughts to flood your head. Maybe that's just me, but that's what always happens. Being free of porn/lust must also include masturbation if we are ever to be free of it. I hope that we can be free from the chains of porn/lust/masturbation together.
Last edited on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 06:36 am by ShadowWolf
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Praise6
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Posted: Mon Nov 14th, 2005 10:03 am |
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| Are you married?
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B
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Posted: Tue Nov 15th, 2005 02:16 am |
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ShadowWolf wrote: Hey B. I have been mastubating without fantasizing for a long time, so yes it is possible. But after long thought about it (because I have been doing it for several years) I believe it is wrong. For me, it is like a foothold for sexual thoughts to flood your head. Maybe that's just me, but that's what always happens. Being free of porn/lust must also include masturbation if we are ever to be free of it. I hope that we can be free from the chains of porn/lust/masturbation together.
I have also heard the point made that it is very self centered were as sex within marriage is designed to make you care more about the other person, not your self, so maybe it is wrong.
Praise6-No I am not married if you were asking me.
It would definatly seem to me that it is wrong for a married person to do.
____________________
O Christ, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world. Have Mercy upon us.
http://housemdiv.blogspot.com/
http://www.extremetheology.com/
http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com/
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captivated
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Posted: Tue Nov 15th, 2005 10:44 am |
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Hey, guys! It's great you are thinking through these things for the sake of your future wives!
Have you gotten a chance to read the article on this site on the topic of masturbation? It has many helpful insights! Also, just think, if you spend years of your life training your brain to have self-sex without the variable of having a real wife to communicate with, it can feel safe and predictable to stay with it, even after marriage since dealing with the opposite sex is mostly not predictable or always "safe" feeling. So, masturbation, can actually be a way you are training your minds and bodies to keep your wives at a distance in the future. Plus, for most marriages, the husband has to work at things in the marriage in order for his wife to want to connect sexually. If you get married, having trained your brains and bodies in the habit of masturbation, if your wife is putting you off sexually due to a conflict, sickness or pregnancy, the temptation will be strong to seek this release and create more emotional and spiritual distance between you, rather than seeking to minister to your wife's physical, emotional and spiritual needs which will lead to increased closeness and intimacy between the two of you. Ultimately, all of this can only be done through the power of God at work in each of you, which it is or you would not be here, seeking to do the best thing to honor Him! Keep at it!
Blessings in Jesus!
captivated
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Quentin
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Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2005 03:36 pm |
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B wrote: I have heard Dr. Dobson and others say that masturbation with out fantasy is not sinful, and that in fact it is a normal part of most males' lives growing up. Though I have always seen "masturbating with out fantasizing" as a much better alternative to doing so while lusting, I am not so sure that it is amoral.
Recently, I have set goals for the number of days to go with out giving in, and then "masturbating with out fantasy" at the end (going seven days without it, then giving in, etc.). I did so thinking, "I know I am not going to win(I don't have an accountability partner yet) so I might as well give in "without lusting" before I get really aroused by something and am unable to control myself." I was actually able to masturbate with out fantasizing, however, lustfull thoughts did pop up in my head every now and then. Is this something that could potentially go away with experience?
Do any of you have any personal experience or advise you would like to share about "masturbation with out lust"?
Is there even such thing as "masturbation with out lust"? If so, is it sinful?
What about the notion that it is a lesser evil (which is what I currently think)of sorts? Is this an approach you would recomend for fighting addiction to masturbation?
Thanks.
I respect Dobson a lot, but I think myself he is wrong there. I think as Shadow said...it creates a path for sinful thoughts to come inside. But my personal beef with it is this....if it is something I cannot, or have a hard time controling....then it is something that could lead me far far away from what is good and right.
Maybe this verse will help some...
1 Corinthians 8:12
And you are sinning against Christ when you sin against other Christians by encouraging them to do something they believe is wrong.
1 Corinthians 8:13
If what I eat is going to make another Christian sin, I will never eat meat again as long as I live – for I don't want to make another Christian stumble.
So if you're struggling with whether this is right or wrong...I think it safest to say its wrong. But decide now. Because I too know how hard it is when you've gone without MB for days and then strong temptations settle in.....its easy to deceive one self.
- David
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IceBullit
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Posted: Mon Dec 19th, 2005 09:07 am |
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Maybe I come from a different background from the rest of you, but I would have to agree with Dr. Dobson on that point. If you have the discipline needed to keep your mind stray from lustful thoughts while masturbating I believe that it is perfectly normal to do. I do however see the danger of letting your mind wonder into lustful fantasizing.
My question for you is how do you deal with your (for lack of a better term) horniness? I mean it is something that we all encounter and it is natural as humans for us to experience it. Do you just let it go? How do you stay sane?
I am not attacking anyone’s point of view; I am just trying to better understand how people with your perspectives on this issue do handle this.
-Arthur
Last edited on Mon Dec 19th, 2005 09:27 am by IceBullit
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captivated
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Posted: Mon Dec 19th, 2005 10:08 am |
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I admit, I am encountering this topic as a woman, but as a woman with a higher sex drive than some. I have struggled with this and battled against my flesh A LOT! Just sharing this so you know what I'm saying is not heartless or off the cuff.
When I read the scriptures, they seem silent on the topic of masturbation, though not on lust. The do, however, in the Song of Songs, address not awakening love until it pleases (and this was to be in the context of marriage). My husband's sex drive is lower than mine, so when we've just been together, my desire actually increases soon after and I need to press in to be satisfied in the Lord, knowing nothing else will truly satisfy me deeply and in a long lasting way, including masturbation. When my husband and I go longer periods of time in between being together sexually, I've noticed that this part of me "goes to sleep" more as the Bible talks about "not awakening love until it pleases." How I overcome this???? Prayer, worship music which I enter into, the Word, and fasting. Some call it living a lifestyle of worship.....or a fasted lifestyle. Sometimes, I do this better than others, but when I do, I've encountered radical joy and peace and a euphoria beyond compare.....radically!!! It is possible....and He does satisfy better, but the enemy doesn't want us to believe this. Ask God to show you as you do these things. James 4:8 "Draw near to me and I will draw near to you."
Blessings in Jesus! 
captivated
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Praise6
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Posted: Mon Dec 19th, 2005 10:49 am |
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IceBullit wrote:
My question for you is how do you deal with your (for lack of a better term) horniness? I mean it is something that we all encounter and it is natural as humans for us to experience it. Do you just let it go?
Are you married?
Is you "horniness" porn driven?
Last edited on Mon Dec 19th, 2005 10:50 am by Praise6
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IceBullit
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Posted: Mon Dec 19th, 2005 05:17 pm |
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Well I wouldnt say the direct cause of my horniess is porn driven but I would say in the past it was. I have fought my porn addiction for some years now (about 4-5... I am 22) and have gradually been getting better about it through prayer and accountability. At this point it is more my girlfriend is the source more than anything (she is really beautiful and I am attracted to her) and she dosent wear anything inaproperate around me (I made sure of that, and not that she was before). We are planning to get married in about a year and a half and I guess I wanted to address the problem of porn more than masturbation its self.
I have been working on masturbating with out lust and have done it successfully a few times and have found that before I was masturbating more often than I should (when I was not horny). In my view masturbation is not a bad thing as long as you treat it right and do it in moderation. It seems however that the general view on this site is that it is not good in any way at all (in which I respect your view I just dont hold it personally).
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captivated
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Posted: Mon Dec 19th, 2005 07:03 pm |
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Since you plan to marry her, Ice, how does your girlfriend feel about you masturbating now......in marriage, etc...? It can affect a marriage.
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RTK
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Posted: Tue Dec 20th, 2005 12:31 am |
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Icebullit,
Captivated prompted me to wonder if your fiance is even aware of your past addictive behaviors?
There are lots of guys that are sex addicts that marry hoping that marriage will resolve a lot of the problems. Hey, you no longer have to drop your girlfriend off at her house...you now get to sleep with her! I mean hey, you get to sleep with a her every night! Wow. She is right there..and she'll be there in the morning when you wake up...awesome deal, huh. Sex problems solved.
From personal experience, it is a lie that getting married will solve the problems of a sex addict. I deceived my bride by not telling her the truth. It would have given her an option of walking away before marriage. My deception and lies were found out. Needless to say, I caused my friend a lot of heartache and pain. To this day, I can still recall her initial reaction when she found out... and then later on when a detective called our home with some questions. After almost 20 years of marriage, I wonder why this sweet lady would keep putting up with a guy like me. Truly, it must be His grace and mercies!
RTK
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IceBullit
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Posted: Tue Dec 20th, 2005 02:03 am |
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Yes she does know about my past addiction and the problems that I am going through now. In fact she is helping me overcome them by keeping me acountable and the fact that I do not want to hurt her anymore with my actions. She is a very wonderful woman that is there for me in times like this, I am fortunate to have her.
-Arthur
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mike
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Posted: Tue Dec 20th, 2005 02:51 pm |
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>In my view masturbation is not a bad thing as long as you treat it right and do it in moderation.
Can you define in specifics what "moderation and treating it rightly" looks like ?
Do you intend to continue to masturbate after you are married ?
And, what are the emotional and physical benefits of masturbation as you see them?
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IceBullit
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Posted: Tue Dec 20th, 2005 11:09 pm |
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Yes I do intend to continue to masturbate while married. I have asked her about how she feels about masturbating and she is fine with it as long as I do it with out lusting as Dobson puts it and is fine with it within marrage.
My definition of masturbating in moderation would not be doing it when your bored, only when you find yourself to horney to go on. When I switched from the method of masurbating without fantisy I realized that I was doing it to much. Now I am doing it about half as much and am using it more as a way to explore my body rather than to fullfill fantisy.
The Benifits that I find from masturbating are that it helps me to consentrait better when I am stressed. I helps release sexual tension as well as physical tension that has built up over the day.
I do see the point of view that your trying to get across. I do agree that masturbating all the time while in fantisy can be harmful to your marrage becuase of false ideas that you will formulate and the sense of false love. As with anything, it can be abused and it is easier to do with masturbation becuase it is somthing that is kinda attached to you. If you look at it like drinking, a little wine can be heart healthy but when you drink to the point of getting drunk you have crossed the line of healthiness and may have harmful side effects to those around you.
You do need to gaurd your heart, it is harder with masurbation but I believe that if you have a strong enough will and stay away from looking at porn and gaurd where you eyes wonder around women, it is possible to masturbate with out lusting.
Last edited on Tue Dec 20th, 2005 11:31 pm by IceBullit
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IceBullit
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Posted: Tue Dec 20th, 2005 11:11 pm |
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I have another question for you guys:
What do you think about mutual masturbation within the bedroom setting with your wife there? It can be used as a way to see what each other knows about their own bodies and actualy benifit you while having sex. I am just courious.
-Arthur
Last edited on Tue Dec 20th, 2005 11:13 pm by IceBullit
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Praise6
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Posted: Wed Dec 21st, 2005 09:45 am |
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IceBullit wrote: Yes I do intend to continue to masturbate while married.
Wow
My husband's masturbation during our marriage hurt our relationship. If I wasn't available exactly when he felt "horny" he would take care of himself.
Left me feeling replaceable.
I am wondering why you feel you will "need" to masturbate while married.
If I mention masturbation without lust to my husband, he laughs.
Last edited on Wed Dec 21st, 2005 09:48 am by Praise6
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matt
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Posted: Wed Dec 21st, 2005 12:48 pm |
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This is a dangerous topic to jump in on, but I feel like I should. Working under the assumption that we are all Christians and hold the Bible as the one source of truth and life, I think its outside of our realm to state whether masturbation, in and of itself is inherently wrong. Since the Bible is silent on the issue, I don't feel like I can speak to what God was thinking when he assembled the Bible. I feel like each situation should be addressed individually and the situations surrounding masturbation can be right or wrong. For me, there is no doubt that masturbation in my life is and always will be wrong. I can't do it without lusting and will never try because it has been so destructive in my life. I don't think the Bible or God gives me enough evidence to judge that for someone else's life, I can only speak to what it has done to me.
Logically and Biblically Ice's discussion makes sense. From my perspective, there is much potential danger that personally I would avoid, but I don't believe that I could make a case that its Biblically wrong or suggested to avoid.
Just some thoughts.
____________________
In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't.
-Blaise Pascal
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mike
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Posted: Wed Dec 21st, 2005 04:10 pm |
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>Yes I do intend to continue to masturbate while married. I have asked her about how she feels about masturbating and she is fine with it as long as I do it with out lusting as Dobson puts it and is fine with it within marrage.
1. I don't recall that Dobson said it was ok during marriage.
2. You've not been married yet, so you haven't yet struggled with the physical and emotional self absorption that masturbation causes within marriage. I think the ladies will attest to what this looks and feel like.
3. Are you aware that masturbation has the effect of causing you to finish quicker, so that sex with your wife will be a short story - leaving her holding the bag?
> My definition of masturbating in moderation would not be doing it when your bored, only when you find yourself to horny to go on.
Which means you are masturbating for physical release, correct ?
From http://www.blazinggrace.org/masturbation.htm:
The bad and the ugly: The good:
No connection with another It feels good for a few seconds Loneliness Can have orgasm on demand
Shame Can do it alone
Robs wife emotionally and physically Don’t need to please your wife
Places wedge between God and self No more lack of sex outlet
Promotes instant gratification mentality Can feed sex obsession
Promotes “It’s all about me”
Violates marriage alone principle
Violates comfort from Christ principle
Violates mastery of flesh principle
Softens the character
Is used as a counterfeit substitute for love
Masturbation is "all about me", while sex in marriage is about pleasing another. When you masturbate you're training yourself in the fine art of self absorption - both emotionally and physically.
I have yet to hear a guy say "I had a wonderful time having sex with myself last night - but I hear all the time how empty it leaves men - and how destructive it is in marriage.
>The Benifits that I find from masturbating are that it helps me to consentrait better when I am stressed. I helps release sexual tension as well as physical tension that has built up over the day.
consistent, vigorous exercise does a far better job of releiving stress than masturbation.
>If you look at it like drinking, a little wine can be heart healthy but when you drink to the point of getting drunk you have crossed the line of healthiness and may have harmful side effects to those around you.
Drinking and sex are 2 different things. I can drink alone, but sex is meant to happen with another.
Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am (single). However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
1 Corinthians 7:7-9
In the above verses, Paul first says he wishes that all men were single, and then, those who "burn with passion" are counseled to marry. Since Paul is saying he wishes the others were single, why didn't he say something like "But if they do not have self control, let them masturbate so they can remain single?" If masturbation is a valid option, why wasn't it provided here ?
And, God's word also says:
But I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
I Corinthians 9:27
Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts
which wage war against the soul.
1 Peter 2:11
All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
1 Corinthians 6:12
"For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion like the Gentiles who do not know God…
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5
You have said that the benefit of masturbation is so that you won't be horny. In other words, your desires dictate what you do. This is the opposite from God's word, which says that we are to "discipline our bodies and make them our slaves," and "know how to possess our vessels in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion (ie letting our "horny desires rule over us)," among other things.
From personal experience I know that the benefits of not masturbating far outweigh any short lived pleasure it provides. My character was a soft marshmallow when I masturbated, and I was always sex and self focused. Today my character is stronger and I say no to temptations much easier then when I was masturbating. The emptiness is gone, and I don't have to deal with the shame. My marriage is much healthier, and we enjoy each other physically for longer periods of time, when she wants to. Life is much better without all the sex obsession, and my relationship with God is many times better.
My friend, the deepest joys in life do not come from sex. You have to decide if the strength in your character, means more to you than "getting off." I believe that we all aspire to be men and women of God of strong courage and moral fiber, who can stand firm in the culture of lust and help others. I hated myself when I was mired in Christian mediocrity; I wanted to be something more. I want to be an Elijah, who had the guts to stand against the nation of Israel, or Stephen who was stoned for telling the truth, or Paul, who took beatings for his faith. Men of moral courage aren't ruled by pleasure or their desires; they make their bodies their slaves.
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RTK
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Posted: Wed Dec 21st, 2005 04:30 pm |
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Men of moral courage aren't ruled by pleasure or their desires; they make their bodies their slaves
Well said, Mike.
RTK
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