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journeyofmine
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 06:53 am |
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Hello Everybody,
I am looking for your thoughts and comments on this issue/me. Just so you can follow a bit better, I am raVen's partner. At least for the moment. We have been together about 5 years and we have a 10 month old son. I am in part writing this post at her request, and at part because I feel it will be good for me. It is time that I become more involved in recovery and get my story and honesty out to more people. I have been too good at isolating myself, or withdrawing from recovery.
There are two big issues here that we are dealing with right now (of course among others) that I want to talk about in this post. One is that I have been in recovery for 2.5 years, but have been so poor and slack at it. I had a psychologist for much of it. He stopped seeing me because of lack of change. I have gone to meetings for several months, then stopped for several, then gone sporadically. I now have a psychiatrist treating me for depression and anxiety and will be getting another psychologist. I am now serious about my recovery and have started attending meetings again for the last two weeks as well as reading and using blazing grace radio shows and other resources online. I will continue and explore other activities in recovery like connecting with others like me and a 12 step study. The problem now is that I've had so many false starts she has trouble believing me, and because of my slack attitude for the last 2.5 years it may be too late. I have however been lucky and by the grace of God have been sexually sober the whole time. I truly believe God has saved me. It's time I pay Him back by doing the work, and pay back my partner for her loyalty and effort too.
Now on to the bigger problem. When I was acting out in my addiction I spent much time on the internet in porn sites and cybersex and webcamsex. What she is having such a hard time with is that I had several young women on my messenger. Several of whom were 15 to 17 when I talked to them. We had sexual conversations and cybersex and webcam. She doesn't understand why I would do this or what it might mean about me now. I try to explain, but can't do it well enough and of course (through my own fault) she has huge trust issues as it is with me.
What I tell her is the reason I looked at teen porn sites and had them on my messenger was: They almost always misled me or the topic wasn't discussed. I also tell her that the reason for the sites is that when in your addiction you come across things - click a link and there you are - and you have no judgement, don't care about right or wrong, and cross boundaries you would not otherwise cross, so I ended up going to those sites and going back. Much of the time it is like I was in a trance and it is hard for me to remember details even enough that it is hard to tell her what she wants to know. She worries that it is because in my "normal" mind or "normal" life that I have a predaliction toward young girls. I know this is not true but do not know how to reassure her. I am sure active recovery would have helped her. I tell her that I've been sober over two years, and will now be active in recovery and that I do not have a tendancy to young women, that I did that because it worked in my addiction to get me away from my problems and my life. The illegality of it also concerns me.
She feels that I don't think it is a big deal, but I do. I know how wrong and sick it was, and how it abused those girls, and myself. I think she feels that way because of my lack of effort on recovery and because I tell her how I am different now. I am different because of what recovery I did do, and because I know my God has saved me. I lean on him everyday. Also, I know my time sober has changed me alot. I never ever want to be in that hell again. I also don't think she beleives how much I suffered in my addiction. I don't ever want that now that I have my freedom.
Really whenever I think of what I've done in the past I get ill... physically so. Espcecially when I see porn mags or anything of the like.
Any comments or ideas you could say to shed insight or help would be great.
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Suzi
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 06:44 pm |
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As a wife, married to a recovering man, the main thing I would recommend is say what you will do, then DO it. Actions speak a million times more than words do.
Stay faithful in recovery. Stick to the plan. When you feel like giving up, think about what it would be like to lose those you love.
Answer her questions... all of them.
Be accountable, not just for your time, your actions, but also your thoughts.
You didn't say if you have a pastor or other spiritual leader you can turn to, in addition to your addiction recovery group, but I suggest you seek someone who can lead you into a deeper relationship with the Lord.
When she brings up the horrors of whatever she is worried about from your past, do not try to convince her it wasn't as bad as she thought it was. Admit that the sin really was dispicable, that you regret having had anything to do with it, and continue to reassure her you do not want that kind of life. Tell her that... but only if it is really the TRUTH.
DO NOT MINIMIZE ANYTHING that you have done in the past. It reeks of rationalization. Did you do stupid things? yeah... You did. Admit it. Don't try to sugarcoat any of it.
And ask yourself WHY do you want to "clean up your act"? Is it just to keep from upsetting her? Or is it because you really understand how bad things were and you want to do what's right... for YOU? If she walked out on you today, would you still be as committed to staying sober?
Don't lie to her, OK? But more importantly, don't lie to yourself.
Hang in there... nothing about this is going to be easy. This is a good place to be... read and be accountable here.
Suzi
____________________
Psa 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
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raVen
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 08:48 pm |
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Suzi,
Thank you for your reply. Actually when I was composing this post I went over it with her, and I realized that I had minimized things. That even if in some of the cases I didn't know till later that the girls were underage it did not matter. That in many of the cases that I did know, and that in the ones that I didn't know until later it still did not stop me afterward.
I do not want to minimize anything anymore. That has actually caused big problems in the past and especially last night. In fact when I talked to her I had agreed that there was no place in that post for minimizing and that saying that I didn't know they were so young till later should not be there and had removed it. But I had copied and pasted from an original document and realized I had missed the last part of it, so then I re-copy and pasted it, and forgot to remove that statement again.
Right here and right now I want to own up to everything. I know and knew what I was doing.
I am going into recover full speed now, and I know it will help me. I don't know if it will be able to help my partner (raVen) enough. But it is still important so that I can be a whole person and a good person and never hurt anyone again. raVen has told me that it was a big problem not doing recovery as I should have and I regret that deeply. She also told me today that even if I had it may not be enough because of how she feels and the difficulty she is having. I understand this. I just hate it. I feel so terrible about what I have done and so helpless to change it. Nevertheless I know I need to be in recovery for me. I know my partner doesn't believe that I will stay in recovery this time because I've started and stopped before. I understand that. But I believe that I will. I pray that I will everyday.
I do have a pastor, although I haven't been to my church in a while, it is part of my recovery that I will be doing again faithfully. I know God and Jesus have helped me a lot and when I/we were going to church it helped me too, in all areas.
Once again thank you for your post. Please pray for me.
Journeyofmine
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journeyofmine_
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 08:58 pm |
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Hey All,
OOPS... I didn't realize I was automatically logged in as my partner - raVen. The last post was not done by raVen, it was done by me; journeyofmine, as it is signed.
Just wanted to let you know. All comments are welcome, and I would like to request you pray for me.
Journeyofmine_
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It's not the destination, but the journey that matters.
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 02:08 pm |
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Please read carefully what I am about to write so it is not misunderstood, limited medium and what not.
First let me qualify myself by saying I am an addict so I "get" the concept.
It irks me to no end when addict say - I hate my substance of choice (porn, drugs, alcohol, whatever)
Why?
Because that's NOT an honest answer.
You don't start planning how to get your substance of choice first thing in the morning over something you HATE.
You don't throw away everything good in your life over something you hate.
You don't lie, steal and destroy over something you hate.
The truth is that you LOVE the substance and hate the consequences.
For example, I didn't hate drinking. I can remember the first time I ever had alcohol. I literally fell in love at the age of twelve and I can remember thinking, "Wow, I never knew it was possible to feel like this."
I didn't hate any of the addictive things I was acting out - I loved them and I worshipped them like a God.
What I hated was the resutls those choices had on my life.
This kind of gut level honesty is a really great place to start. Don't lie and say you hated something you in fact did not hate - it rings false 
Pray about it and ask God to show you the truth.
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junkyardboy
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 05:45 pm |
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you are so correct tropicalstorm.
our hearts are wicked and love sin, this is the place we must start.
when we can stand with God and admit to ourselves what God already knows,
"that the heart is wicked and decietful above all things" than we can be reborn.
"we are drawn to sin as a moth to the flame" and it is only when we bring a broken contrite heart to God can we have true freedom.
only in Christ is there resurrection, deliverance, forgiveness and victory.
God does not want our 12 step programs, our days, weeks, minutes of sobriety.
He demands our heart, the fact that we see sin as God sees it, vile and wicked which displaces God from His rightful place and that which He hates.
Those are changes that can take place only at the Cross and not some therapists office.
peter
____________________
have we been abandoned by God?
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/11/dr_john_macarth.html
http://www.valleybible.net/position_papers.php
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gaylon
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 11:55 pm |
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tropicalstorm wrote: First let me qualify myself by saying I am an addict so I "get" the concept.
It irks me to no end when addict say - I hate my substance of choice (porn, drugs, alcohol, whatever)
Why?
Because that's NOT an honest answer.
The truth is that you LOVE the substance and hate the consequences
My wife and I were talking last night, and I told her that. It seems like, though, that you would eventually come to the point where you do hate it, or at least the doing of it, because it's sin. And, truthfully, it shames me because I still do love the sin -- not that I want to go back to doing it, but because it felt so good, and so reassuring, that I think it became a friend of sorts to me. At least, that's what my counselor said. So often, especially when I'm stressed, I feel like I just really really want to have that feeling again. But I realize the cost, and try one more day to avoid the acting out, and try a little harder to have emotional intimacy with my wife. I just started reading A.W. Tozier's "Pursuit of God" (at the recommendation of Mike Genung in his 'Road to Grace' book), and it looks promising. I have always, deep in my heart, wanted to feel that relationship of trusting, perfect, love -- the deep sweetness -- of that Infinite Being. I think maybe if I can reach the point of trusting and knowing God, maybe the inner yearning will be filled by Him, instead of the other things I've always used to try to satisfy it...
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truthseeker
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 02:07 am |
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I suppose it's been expressed here many times, but the thought that crossed my mind was, "Yes, addiction and idolatry make pretty good synonyms."
TruthSeeker
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junkyardboy
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 02:35 am |
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excellent analogy truthseeker
____________________
have we been abandoned by God?
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/11/dr_john_macarth.html
http://www.valleybible.net/position_papers.php
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TimM
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 04:04 am |
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tropicalstorm wrote: It irks me to no end when addict say - I hate my substance of choice (porn, drugs, alcohol, whatever)
Why?
Because that's NOT an honest answer.
. . .
The truth is that you LOVE the substance and hate the consequences.
. . .
This kind of gut level honesty is a really great place to start. Don't lie and say you hated something you in fact did not hate - it rings false
I'm absolutely in favor of gut level honesty, but I'm not sure my gut and tropicalstorm's agree on this. My experience of active addiction included an increasing fragmentation of my personality into different pieces that scarcely spoke to one another. A part of me absolutely loved porn, to be sure, but a part of me also hated it. I'm not true to my own experience if I don't admit how pleasurable I found acting out to be, but I'm also not true to my own experience if I don't admit how much anguish and hatred I felt toward my "drug" and toward myself as a result of my acting out. Part of what drove me to hit bottom was the horror at being fragmented into bits with such starkly different desires and emotions. I loved porn and I would happily have seen it banned from existing. I bought it and I threw it away, again and again and again. I longed for it and I loathed and deplored it.
Lots of non-addicts don't get this. That it doesn't make sense to them is not surprising because it doesn't make sense. People naturally expect others to will one thing, and willing two diametrically opposed things at once or in quick succession therefore seems impossible to them. I agree that my both loving and hating porn isn't logical, but I am sure it was my experience. I would have expected it to be every addict's experience, but I certainly respect tropicalstorm's testimony that it wasn't her experience. Live and learn.
To me, this difference of opinion with tropicalstorm isn't very significant. I do feel like I want to say, just for the record, though, that I don't think I have been of a single will regarding porn. I'm sorry if that seems to tropicalstorm like a dishonest answer that rings false. I'm really trying to be as honest as I can to the very divided self left after many years of addiction.
Of course, I've been wrong before.
Tim M.
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gaylon
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 10:39 am |
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TimM wrote: tropicalstorm wrote: I loved porn and I would happily have seen it banned from existing. I bought it and I threw it away, again and again and again. I longed for it and I loathed and deplored it.
...willing two diametrically opposed things at once or in quick succession therefore seems impossible to them.....I don't think I have been of a single will regarding porn. ...I'm really trying to be as honest as I can to the very divided self left after many years of addiction...
Of course, I've been wrong before.
Tim M.
Very true about the divided self, and the self-loathing and complete repression about the "other self" that is possible, and a compartmentalization that seems to be a natural trait of males. I could truly completely repress in my concious mind that I had ever looked at porn, then a week (or less) later be looking again, with a draw and compulsion that was out of the control of my will, until I learned the compulsive cycle, and the necessity of bringing the behavior out in the open, in order to merge the divided person, and break the cycle. I'm still in the process of merging the fantasy world and the "real" world, and trying to get a firm grasp in my mind which is which and it's a wrenching, painful experience each day. Very real...
Tim - can't imagine you've ever been wrong before 
--- Gaylon V.
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RainySunShine
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 06:23 pm |
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I think that whether you are an addict or a partner of an addict , you cannot presume to tell anyone what does or does not ring true for them in their battle/journey/experience.
There is an arrogance in TropicalStorms repy that I feel has no place on the boards. This is a very complicated issue as to why men and woman choose porn as their addiction/drug of choice and it stems from many different issues pertaining to child hood , trauma , abuse morals and upbringing etc....
I have some understanding as to how this addiction works for some and in regards to myself and I know it is as different within the recovery as it is in the addiction. There is alot of common ground to be sure hence the site 's and support BUT to assume everyone's triggers , issues , and feelings are one and the same is what is ringing false no question
just my opinion thanks
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crucified123
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 11:02 pm |
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Dear Journeyofmine,
You are very courageous to share.
The one question that immediately comes to my mind is that you say you have been sexually sober for a couple of years. Are saying that you haven't acted out sexually and this is what you mean? or does this include you also have not look upon a female in real life? I say this, because just because you haven't been physically involved via self erotica or Mbing, it does mean that you still do not have work to do.
Are you bouncing away from the candy aisle whenever a attractive female comes to your attention, or are you waiting until you find out what she looks like by waiting to cast your eyes upon her face? If you are do the latter, then you are still feeding into the pleasure zone of your brain and being unfaithful. Have you read "Every Man's Battle?"
More to your question regarding her concerns. I think any person would have a concern about this. How old is she and how old are you would be my first question. Also, you might consider that as a person who "was" an "A" in the terms described, it would indicate that you have a developmental stage that was disrupted and that caused you to be stuck and wanting to relate to "girls" at this age, but in terms of doing so that equated sex with love while giving you a sense of control. Girls at that age represent innocence and vulnerability. It can give a guy a godlike feeling to boost their ego and self-esteem, even though it is taking advantage of a human being that is probably looking for attention in all the wrong ways. Society is such a mess, you think?
How old were you when you had your first kiss, date, or Mbing experience. I'm asking you to share those anwers with us. That's up to you. The other question is this: Have you found a therapist who is an expert in sex addiction. Not all psychiatrist are experts in this area. They just know or are familiar with it, so be sure you find someone who is an expert. Invite your wife to sit in session with you so she can voice her concerns to the therapist as he helps each of you to understand what the implications are and what can be done to resolve this.
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crucified123
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 11:03 pm |
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| Whoops, what I meant to say is I'm not asking you to share anything information you don't feel comfortable to do so. Asking more to just give you something to mull over and to consider.
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guitarist63
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 11:45 pm |
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In response to Tim's point about loving and hating the porn. My first sight of hard core as a boy was one of revulsion (or repulsion) and attraction - I think in equal measure. An unprecedented charge of that chemical, or combination of chemicals to the brain of such force like that at that time - 12 years - must have caused a shock to the brain.
8 May 07. I will also add a point of relevance to Tim's post re. obtaining and then destroying and then obtaining porn. I kept collecting and then destroying porn in the years since I had a computer, which is since 2000. Problem with porn was very sporadic before then.
Last edited on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 09:40 pm by guitarist63
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crucified123
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 12:00 am |
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It usually takes a good couple years to develop that neural pathway, so I would say this had a lot to do with your the age preference.
The developmental stage you missed as a result of the dependency you formed upon this type of self medication will need to be rebuilt. That is Self-esteem, healthy and Godly sexual identity and a revamping of your beliefs and values regarding females.
You will also need to work with a therapist to understand the underlying struggles that was going on within your family system when this took place. Remember, get a therapist who is an expert in sex addicition. Call New Life Ministries for referrals.
Start hanging out with older men and other couples. Get the book, "If Men Only Knew" by Gary Smalley. A very small inexpensive book but packs a whallop in helping you to understand your wife. Something you can even read together, since your wife is one of a kind, unique and a gift for you to from God.
As your wife sees you mature and gain a sense of humble confidence, rather than to be codependent upon this type of self-medication and perhaps people pleasing behavior, except when it comes to her - she will trust you more. Oftentimes, an "A" will view their wives in terms of their mother. They not and they aren really portraying that. It just feels like it due to the accountability factor. Anyway, in many ways when someone gets stuck in this developmental stage or skips past it, they will re-enact the family stuff with their spouse or try to do what they were suppose have done during this developmental stage. In other words, they will be very rebellious and used the spouse as a means to be independent and to leave home. Trouble is, the marriage is not a place to leave home, nor is the wife suppose to pay for the sins of the parents or the "A." You have to learn to do this in a different way, like drawing a clear boundary around your marriage and saying "no" to those things that held you back in the first place.
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crucified123
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 12:14 am |
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Hey Tim,
For many "A"s they do feel double minded in all their ways. That's because of what is called the ego and the superego in modern terms.
The ego part of us is the part that says I want, I want, I want. But the Superego part of us is like the parent, law, or God's voice speaking out to us. In the Bible it says that even a child knows the difference between righ and wrong.
You have to understand the neurological process that takes place as you feed off the very chemicals that are naturally made inside your body. Sexual Addiction is such that you have taught your brain to depend on a rush that was never supposed have been developed. It is 300 stronger than cocaine. But that doesn't mean that it cannot be totally irradicated. You have to be willing to detox, if you will. Part of that is doing the things necessary to be genuinely connected with others in such a way that actually encourages and motivates you to be connected with our spouse, spiritually, mentally, emotional, physically, and sexually that you would not be with anyone else.
There are so many things that you can do. The double mindedness means that you have to make choices instead of being immature and impulsive. The ego would love to stay self-centered and totally bathed in the womb of complete bliss and avoid all and any conflict. As you choose to turn away from these things and nurture yourself by perhaps, nurturing others in a healthy way, that neural pathway will become atrophied and die. A new pathway will be created and you will eventually develop a knee-jerk response to those things that one held you in bondage.
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crucified123
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 12:30 am |
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Dear Tim M
Clarification:
you will eventually develop a knee-jerk response to those things that one held you in bondage.
A knee-jerk response in these terms would mean you would immediately call it for what it is and have nothing to do with it. "Danger, danger, danger"
Although a person is fully aware of the pitfalls of this, the ego part of them along with the chemical addictive elements is like a double whammy that totally zips out our better judgment. The part in us that tell us the reality of the situation, we have learn to block out, just like a teenage blocks out authority or their parents. In turn, the person becomes blinded, narcissistic, and sociopathic in their care or concerns towards others. Until they have a "wakeup" call, usually in losing something that they can actually feel the pain, they will continue in their way.
Underneath it all there is alot of shame. But while in the midst of it, the addictive agent is so powerful, you really don't have control over it. That's why real relationships are so very important. To have an accurate mirror to reflect who we really are and mirrors that can hold a firm, but loving line of boundaries in the process of healing. Accountability and honesty and obedience goes a long way.
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guitarist63
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 01:10 am |
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Thanks for your kind advice, Crucified123. I perhaps should have made clear I have never been married and am a virgin. That sounds dreadful. 44 now. I am not looking for a wife - too old and worn out. I had a very disappointing experience with a therapist who I was recommended to see through my GP. That was following diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome last year. I thought she was a sex therapist so I gave all the details in the consultation before I realised she was nothing of the sort. All she kept saying was, "What do you want me to do for you?" That completely nonplussed me. I felt terrible to have divulged all that information for nothing. I don't want to see any other therapist unless it is a Christian one. Stephen
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crucified123
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 08:30 am |
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Dear Guitarist63,
Wow, sorry to hear about the lousy experience with the therapist. The last place I would go to get a referral for this type counseling is from my GP.
I don't know if you are unmarried and a virgin by choice or by underlying issues that have kept you from pursing a relationship and marriage. I mean if you are celibate and unmarried because you have that gift then that's fine, but then again, I would have to wonder why you on on blazing grace.
So assuming that you are not celibate by choice or married, then I would strongly encourage you to read Patrick Carnes Book: Out of the shadow. Or pick up a book, called Emotional Incest. I can't remember the author's name at this moment. You say that you suffer from Asperger Syndrome. That means you have some learning disabilities, but are very bright as well. Right.
I would really encourage you not to give up on seeing a therapist. There are many good ones out there, but when you call talk to the therapist first hand before setting up an appointment and ask them the questions regarding thier expertise in sexual anorexia and sexual addiction. One is as closely related to the other. It's also related in part to anorexia in a way.
Call New Life Ministries and to speak to an Every Man's Battle Counselor. I think they will help you find that golden needle in the haystack. Try thinking about this in terms of now having some experience that makes you a little more discerning towards therapist in general. They not all equal and just each of us they have their own style that sometimes might work best for them, but don't work for us. You are the client, so do not think or threat them as if they are infallible. You"ll be okay, just don't give up in this endeavor.
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