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FOH
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Posted: Mon Oct 1st, 2007 04:35 pm |
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OK, Truthseeker- I get the point, this is not the place for rational discussion or even Scriptural exegesis about the instant topic, it is only a support group for those who feel wronged and are looking for empathy. I'll take my occasionally moderately contrarian views away, since I can't confine them to pure strokes.
I do suspect that people often forget that in addiction therapy, what is often most needed is intervention, and that includes the enabling family, not just the "offender". Male sexual nature was created by God just as was female sexual nature. In the context of purported SA, all one generally reads about suppressing this, rather than celebrating it as it should be in the proper context.
I think that a lot of women actually simply don't really like men. They may like the idea of a man, for company, to let them have children before the biological clock ticks down, to feel that they were good enough to attract someone the way the other girls did, and so on. Most often, I think they like what they think a man is supposed to be, ther Lifetime Channel sensitive, estrogen-enhanced caring male, the one who is molded after the wedding to fit into the right shaped hole and follow her lead. But not men as we really are- horny, aggressive, not really conversational, sometimes thoughtless, always imperceptive to her moods, action more than feelings, etc. (You can say the same thing, of course, about men not liking real women as they actually are, and there is doubtless a lot of truth there, which is why I said that true happy marriage is almost impossible without the molding done by the Holy Spirit).
BTW, I am fully with you on Eph. 5- in fact, my point is that that is the ubiquitous context in which married Christian sexuality is always taught, almost never the steamier reality of 1 Cor. 7. Both need to be equally taught in conjunction with one another, they almost never are. Give credit to Linda Dillow for being virtually the only evangelical writer to make those points.
Au revoir.
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truthseeker
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Posted: Mon Oct 1st, 2007 11:27 pm |
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Hi FOH,
I am hard pressed to understand how, if you read that lengthy post to which I linked, that you believe me to have been saying, "this is not the place for rational discussion or even Scriptural exegesis about the instant topic, it is only a support
group for those who feel wronged and are looking for empathy."
BG is so much more than that. It is encouragement for men, both married and single, to live a life of purity. It encourages both men and women to learn about each other's needs and enhance their communication. Yes, for wives, it is frequently a trauma center, where many arrive nearly unconscious from the pain of betrayal, where wounds must first be gently cleaned, stitched, and bandaged, before there is any hope of the heart healing enough to even begin to function as it did prior to the wound. Yes, we talk about forgiveness, and discuss ways to restore/revive marriage to mirror it as outlined in Scripture. Wounds differ vastly in depth, and healing varies depending on many variables. Some wounds never heal, and are dealt with by "staying together for the kids," or divorce. It is particularly difficult for wives to heal when other circumstances in life had already scarred their hearts before marriage.
Most of the men here bear their own wounds, which long preceed any, and sometimes no rejection by their wives. Then there are the men who would love nothing more than to have a wife to "keep them from burning with passion," but, thus far, have not met the woman God has chosen for them. These are real people here, with real pain, and, thankfully, some with testimonies of joy and victory. I firmly believe that God has used our experience, in accordance with Romans 8:28, to bring someone to this ministry who has hurt enough to be able to impathize, yet restored so thoroughly that I can remain here without being torn asunder by each new wife's pain, and not so wounded myself that I cannot be a genuine encouragement to those addicted to what hurt me.
If you and your wife are so blessed as to have had no such struggles, to be equally matched physically and/or spiritually that you have never known anything but the bliss of the two being one as God intends, then please get down on your knees together every day and thank Him for it, and pray fervently and faithfully for those of us for whom it has been a struggle. I contend that there are a lot more of us than there are of you.
I would also submit that God's creation of male and female did not include the extreme archetypes which you describe, but the fall contributed significantly to warp the expression and self-control of His design. I believe that the fruit of self-control, the last listed, and probably most difficult to attain, still has a place in marriage. I believe that pleasure deferred can be just as significant a gift to a wife, as pleasure unsought can be a gift to the husband.
TruthSeeker
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FOH
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Posted: Tue Oct 2nd, 2007 12:09 am |
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Truthseeker, I apoligize for the snarky tone of the start of my last post. You are indeed correct that when I wrote it I had not read the thread to which you linked, and I will say that your long post to Bill on that thread was absolutely outstanding, as was the other article that was linked. I very much appreciate your Christ-centered approach to your own family issues- it reminds me a little bit of Shulamite-in-Training at The Marriage Bed, a lovely lady who suffered from bulimia for years and made her minister husband's life a living Gehenna, then by a miracle of submission (not to him, but to Him), found her entire life radically turned around in the same way described by Lysa TerKeurst.
But my own experience (personally not unlike Bill's, matter of fact, right down to the strong love for her, but also with a lot of gynecological surgery and consequent premature menopause on top of it) is that cases such as yours are few and far between. Before this kind of problem can be addressed, it has to be recognized as a problem rather than just the pestering of a wife by an inconsiderate animal. And it is, as I've said before, an intractable biological problem, susceptible only to divine intervention for both spouses. And though I know there are examples out there, I've personally never seen a Christian woman stop and seriously think about this until she has either lost her marriage or almost lost it because of very avoidable infidelity. As Rev. David T. Moore said in "Love For A Lifetime", "If you won't meet his needs, someone else will." I'm not justifying it, just recognizing it. And, of course, there are mirror issues on the distaff side, it's just that in the modern feminist world we hear the woman's view a lot more often, I think. Especially in places like this and in churches, because we can't talk bluntly about sex in church.
The problem is that it is so painful that neither party wants to talk about it, because, rather than being something to work on together in small steps, it is perceived as an attack to be defended against or pushed back into the closet. A man who loves his wife learns that if he gets over his embarrassment at actually being an animal, and says certain things, they will be perceived as personal attacks in the same irrational way that every woman I have ever seen comment regarding porn has said "I can't compete with that, I am not a gorgeous blonde bimbo...." That kind of statement ignores the fact that the segment of porn that is growing rather than fading away from sheer, um, overexposure, is amateur stuff by decidedly unglamorous people. It's not a perfect body that attracts any male over the mental age of 15, it's the attitude about sex and the impression given thereby that they actually like it. As Ann Landers said in response to the question "What does she have that I don't have?" asked by the discarded wife, 'The right question is 'what has she given that I haven't been willing to give?'" Of course, Ann forgot that herself, since a few years later, her own husband left her and married someone else whose attentions weren't completely swallowed up by running an advice column.
Anyway, keep doing what you do here.
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Seeking God
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Posted: Tue Oct 2nd, 2007 04:38 am |
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Dear FOH,
Although I am not married (yet), I feel that I have to voice my opinion on this "addiction" and responsibility issue.
1. Sin is sin, because sin contradicts God's Word.
I think that 1Cor7 clearly teach us about the responsibility of Husbands and Wives, but before we point any finger to our (in my case... Future-) spouse, I invite you to read the verses before 1 Cor 7, which is 1Cor6:13-20
Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall bring to nought both it and them. But the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body: and God both raised the Lord, and will raise up as through his power. Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid. Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.
(1Co 6:13-20)
A man's body is not created for appeasing his sexual sins... But for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. Christ, the creator of the universe, who created Mt. Everest, the Pacific Ocean, made Kangaroos, blew Hurricanes, and with the sweep of His little finger can cause Earthquakes and Tsunamis, King of kings, and Lord of the lords, have shed His blood and let His body hanged on a tree, so that He can live in us and us in Him.
Then how can we sin??? How can we give in? How can we look at porn and give in? Every images that we see, God also see, every acting out that we made, we done it with the hand which is Christ's in us! Blasphemy! Dishonoring His Name! How great is the sin! which even deserves death! deserves eternal punishment!
But we are sinners, what we want to do, we can't do it. I remember taking resolves, after resolves, after another resolves, not to see any porn, and never to give in, but I fail, I fall, and enslaved. But Christ bought me! He paid the price for me, He come to this world, and show me how to live, how to pray, let me know the truth, and show me the way... which is in Him.
The only way I can be free, is in Him, TOTALLY surrender to His will, confession, accountability, pluck out, cut off anything that will make me stumble, seek Him, LOVE HIM with all my heart, might, mind and soul, AND HE SET ME FREE. I've been free for 51 days now. BECAUSE GOD SET ME FREE. And there is no other way
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. (Joh 14:6)
So, can a man say to his wife, "I've not been free, because YOU CAN'T SATISFY ME", is actually placing his hope on the wrong shoulder. OF COURSE SHE CAN'T, because he need to look for it, from God, and God only.
2. We are called to devote ourselves to God and Love our wives
But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. (1Co 7:6)
Remember that 1Cor7 is written in the spirit of permission, and not of commandment, thus we can't use this scripture to "command one another" to submit to our will, but to use this permission, to love one another, to be reminded that we (ourselves) need to love our spouse, and do the best we can to serve them, and unite, to serve God and fight satan.
But I would have you to be free from cares. He that is unmarried is careful for the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord: but he that is married is careful for the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
(1Co 7:32-33)
That is why Paul also call for single men to devote themselves to God, (not to devote themselves in porn, adultery, fornication while "waiting for their future spouse to indulge them"), because MARRIED MEN ARE CALLED TO PLEASE HIS WIFE... and a married man's focus will be devided between God, and His wife.
3. We are called to Encourage one another and not to bash one another in endless debate
FOH, you are right, this IS a place for the weak to come and seek help, for sinners to come and seek forgiveness, and I am proud to say that I am it's member.
Isn't Christ came for us sinners?
Isn't Church is made to heal the sick?
When does the truth became "I am holier than thou cause I knowest the truth"?
When the truth (Christ) actually is the one who says "let He who have not sinned cast the first stone"?
that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Faithful is the saying, and concerning these things I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men: but shun foolish questionings, and genealogies, and strifes, and fightings about law; for they are unprofitable and vain. (Tit 3:7-9)
Forgive my lengthy post, but do believe, that I say these things out of love and respect for you. I wish that I can share to you more about How Christ set me free, and HOW GREAT is the new life HE gave. I wish that I can know you more, how your life's been, how's your wife, or your son.
God Bless.
PS: Thank You truthseeker for your posts. I've gain great insights on the (my future) wife's perspective.
Last edited on Tue Oct 2nd, 2007 04:40 am by Seeking God
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FOH
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Posted: Tue Oct 2nd, 2007 10:49 pm |
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Hi, Seeking- nice to meet you. Congratulations on your impending nuptials, and I hope your bride is as cool after a few decades as mine still is. I had the opportunity to serve mine all weekend (playing nurse, since I haven't taken care of a real patient for money for about 10 years) and yesterday while she was laid low with a bug. Sometimes that almost involves sitting on her to keep her down when she needs rest but wants to do too many things!
I don't disagree with your theology at all. My caution for you, as an old guy, is that you need to stay grounded, because we live in two worlds- the world of the Spirit and the world of the flesh. There are a lot of disgraced ministers around who lost wonderful ministries (Sandi Patti, to name a female example, since I listed a lot of guys in an earlier post), because they were so busy with "sound doctrine" that they ignored the human realities, and fell when sexual temptation intervened. That is, in my view, precisely why Paul included the blunt words he did in that passage- as a very practical prophylactic at least as much as ideal theology. If you wear each other out, you won't have desire left for other targets- think of it as sensual methadone. Like it or not, sometimes the prosaic has a place in the world of ideals. I reiterate that if that is too much trouble, so is all of marriage, because the one unique element of marriage over having a friend and roommate is sex. Period.
Of course, virtually all of what you say is doctrinally correct and a reasonable interpretation of the words. My point is that the Christian church has disserved itself by ignoring the proddings of the real world out there. There will be many times in your marriage, no matter how good it is, that you will succumb to un-Christ-like feelings and behave badly in various ways- I know I have. As the word goes, let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall.
And my comments here are all about not looking at the other person, but instead checking one's self- the only one we are really accountable for- that means that, even if you feel that you have been, or are being wronged by your spouse, whether the other's sin is porn, adultery, or just plain old abuse, the right question is not "He's to blame, not me!" He surely is, for his own deeds. But the right question is, "Have I done everything I am supposed to do?" Hubby may be wrong in trying to throw blame back- that doesn't mean we are right in ducking the question, because we can both be wrong at the same time, and, in fact, we both usually are.
And this board is full of spouses railing against the sins of the other. I'm saying that if we instead deliberately ignored our grievances against the other, and looked in the mirror, and asked- "Have I myself fulfilled my mate's needs, or have I also been selfish and contributed to his/her fall?"- we would do things differently. Contributory negligence, under the common law, actually was completely exculpatory for a tort defendant; we don't buy that today, but we do recognize that it almost always takes two to create a problem.
Look at Hosea- God told him to go marry a prostitute, who bore him children, then ran back down to the town to be with other men again. Hosea patiently went back and brought Gomer home, over and over again- as an example of God's patience with Israel, His people who betrayed him over and over.
And here we read about people who are so angry over a spouse looking at a picture or two that they are ready to throw them out? Nice to be so perfect that you can set the bar low without being guilty of any kind of hypocrisy yourself, be it gossip, overeating, etc.Last edited on Wed Oct 3rd, 2007 02:02 am by truthseeker
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truthseeker
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Posted: Wed Oct 3rd, 2007 02:14 am |
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Hi FOH,
We will serve no Christ-like purpose here by criticizing particular denominations and their real or perceived theology.
I strongly assert that noone is here for either having viewed, or their spouse having viewed "a picture or two." Please do not minimize this sin or the pain that it inflicts. Also, as mentioned in Seeking God's post, sexual sin is the only one that Scripture identifies as a sin against one's own body, and the only one for which divorce is explicitly permitted.
TruthSeeker
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clean2day
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Posted: Wed Oct 3rd, 2007 07:15 am |
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FOH
you said And this board is full of spouses railing against the sins of the other. I'm saying that if we instead deliberately ignored our grievances against the other, and looked in the mirror, and asked- "Have I myself fulfilled my mate's needs, or have I also been selfish and contributed to his/her fall?"- we would do things differently. Contributory negligence, under the common law, actually was completely exculpatory for a tort defendant; we don't buy that today, but we do recognize that it almost always takes two to create a problem.
I don't know how long you have been in recovery, and I don't mean to be harsh BUT: when I was useing I would/could blame my wife for my use. After all she knew before we got married that I wanted her to be "this way I needed it this way...."
She had even promised to act out in this way with me. I thank God she didn't. She never said no to me but that was never enough. What I thought I needed was fantasy. That is not reality.
I think what yo need to do is to back up and take a look at just is at fault when someone is doing something wrong. Porning ant lusting after a picture/real woman/men is not "living with the word. When I was single and had only myself to be accountable to I was still sinning. Me not someone else.
Yes, both partners need to do for the other. But if I am chasing after real/unreal love does not start to my love for my partner.
C2d
____________________
"When you need a victory, Jesus gives it.
When you need a friend, Jesus will be there.
When you need to talk, Jesus will listen.
And if you need to cry, Jesus will hold you close.
Rev E. O. Hilt 1908 - 1988
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Wed Oct 3rd, 2007 12:26 pm |
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I do not believe this issue is as simple as it "appears" - it is not a matter of simply understanding and meeting your spouse's needs. Are there men who look in desperation once or twice and their wife goes off the deep end? Probably. Are there men who will look and visit strip clubs, etc no matter how much his wife meets his needs? Yes and there is everything in between for that matter.
It's not about blame, it's about acknowledgement of the problem. To deny the problem and say, "well that's just how God made men" is like having a corpse in the living room. No one talks about it, wonders who it might be, they just step over it and ignore the smell that quickly enters the entire household (including children).
I wll be brutally honesty - there ARE things that I dislike about my husband. I can not wrap my mind around the fact that he is SO good at living a dual life and then trying to make me think I am crazy. In order to even confront him with anything, I would need eight by ten photographs. This is my reality and truth be told, when you consider that he is supposed to be my protector - it hardly stirs the passions to know that he can look me in the face at lie at the drop of a hat.
I think you are over simplifying because you have not lived this reality (and unless your wife was to have an affair and gaslight you) you would be hard pressed to understand.
The truth, for me anyway, is that I have sought after God long and hard in order to be the best wife and helpmeet I can be. While it has improved who I am, it has not improved my marriage.
You can lead a horse to the middle of a river, but you can not force him to drink.
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FOH
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Posted: Wed Oct 3rd, 2007 10:02 pm |
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As I said originally, I am ready for the flames, and here they are!
Of course, Tropics, there is a full gamut of people and situations, a statement with which I fully agree. And my point was exactly that- in contrast to the prevailing attitude here that all who are compulsive, or less, about porn are addicts who have devastated their innocent and sweet, always giving spouses, there are a lot of different situations that contribute to sexual dysfunction in Christian marriages.
You will never find anyone as virulently opposed to the existence of booze as a recovering alcoholic. That does not mean that the world will right itself if Carrie Nation returns along with re-ratification of the 19th Amendment. So, of course, those who have actualy been addicted to porn and infidelity will be those most enthusiastic about censoring TV, the Internet, and every other source of temptation.
Clean2- your statement: "when I was useing I would/could blame my wife for my use. After all she knew before we got married that I wanted her to be 'this way I needed it this way....'" actually does reflect the denial and rationalizations of classic addictive behavior. And, again, a perfect Spirit-filled life finds it fullness in things other than sex. But that "perfect Spirit-filled life" also doesn't exist, and never has except for one perfect example from 2000 years ago. That is exactly why Paul gave his instruction in pretty clear and blunt terms, because we are all imperfect and frail, just forgiven.
So, to reiterate again- no, a spouse is never "to blame"- but a spouse certainly can be in another sin just as much as is the straying partner is in infidelity. And Paul clearly describes the nature of that exacerbating sin in 1 Corinthians 7. If you are starving, you don't cure it with a fast, you cure it with 3 healthy and balanced meals a day- and some will try to take advantage of that and pig out at home, still sneak off to McDonald's, the pizza parlor, and the ice cream place. That self-destructive behavior is understandable if there is no food at home, or you only eat once a week, etc., but it doesn't excuse it.
And I do not excuse it. But if I see spouses say that they are tired of cooking, I wonder which situation we are dealing with. If the tabel is set and the person still runs off to the food court elsewhere, who can blame you for your feelings. But, based on the basic nature of men and women, there are also a lot of tables with no food on them.
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Wed Oct 3rd, 2007 11:55 pm |
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A wicked tongue reveals a wicked heart
and filthy hands reveal a filthy mind.
Kindness, giving, faithfulness, and all things good
reveal the Spirit of Christ at work.
A sinful life lived is not evidence of the Grace of God,
True righteousness reveals true faith for righteousness can only come by faith and faith by hearing the Word of God.
Scriptures repeated does not faith instill, the ears have to be open from within to hear.
Where there is no righteousness, there is no faith. It is a dead faith without works.
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TimM
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Posted: Thu Oct 4th, 2007 04:10 am |
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I'm finding this whole discussion awfully sad.
FOH, I listen to your description of how men feel and of what drives them to betray their wives, and I find it has no connection at all to my experience as a sex addict and as a human being. I read your prescription of what my wife might have done to keep me from acting out, and I find it completely irrelevant to my behavior. I read your description of the failings and misperceptions of spouses and find them profoundly divergent from the actual lives of the many partners of sex addicts I have met. I even look at your description of the virulent opposition of recovering alcoholics to the sale of alcohol and find that I don't know a single alcoholic who thinks that way. AA certainly does not.
FOH, I don't criticize you for not understanding how it feels to be addicted, or how addicts think. It's hard enough for us to get that stuff ourselves. But your analysis simply has no point of contact at all with the reality of my life or the lives of the addicts I know. You may be describing a problem some real person somewhere has, but you're certainly not describing either my problem or the problem of the wives of my fellow addicts. I can't speak for the world at large, but I think you've misread the experience of most of the people on this board.
It saddens me to see so much energy and time and passion devoted to an analysis so detached from our actual lives. For an addict in denial to take strength from your plausible words or for a spouse who doubts herself to be further wounded by your descriptions of her "sin" would be a tragedy.
I'd love to hear your story, FOH: how you come to post here, why you feel such passion about the sins of sexually indifferent wives, what your own struggles and joys and sorrows may have been. Your efforts to tell my story haven't worked, though. I doubt you've told the story of any of the people on this board.
People don't come to self-identify as sex addicts or as their partners lightly. To do so is humiliating and painful and shameful. It hurts like hell. We're not here by accident. We're not here to hide from our real problems. We're here to do whatever it takes to face ourselves and other people and our God with honesty and to build new lives. Encouraging us that we are deeply mistaken about ourselves by offering us a description of ourselves that just makes us blink in stupefied disbelief is a monumental distraction both for us and for you.
I know you're trying to help. I can obviously tell you feel strongly about the questions you raise. But I'm sure I'm not alone on this board in saying that I don't know whose life you're describing. You say it's not yours; it's certainly not mine. What are you getting out of this exchange? I'm a simple man just trying to share experience, strength and hope with fellow addicts and their partners and to avoid controversy, but I just look at this whole discussion as a bizarrely protracted misunderstanding of stunning scope.
And that makes me sad.
Tim M.Last edited on Thu Oct 4th, 2007 01:51 pm by TimM
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Thu Oct 4th, 2007 04:42 am |
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Have you considered that an "indifferent" spouse would be highly unlikely to post here?
Really? - I mean really considered that scenario?
An indifferent spouse would not care if their spouse had an issue with porn - if he left her alone, so be it - hence she wouldn't be here.
An indifferent spouse would not be compelled to be enough for her husband and hence would not post here.
It may seem lopsided here, but from where I sit, it makes perfect sense.
Just a thought, not a flame.
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Seeking God
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Posted: Thu Oct 4th, 2007 05:23 am |
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Dear FOH,
My caution for you, as an old guy, is that you need to stay grounded, because we live in two worlds- the world of the Spirit and the world of the flesh. There are a lot of disgraced ministers around who lost wonderful ministries (Sandi Patti, to name a female example, since I listed a lot of guys in an earlier post), because they were so busy with "sound doctrine" that they ignored the human realities, and fell when sexual temptation intervened. Let me add another person in your list of fallen ministers of Christ... ME.
I am a fallen servant of Christ, if you take time to read my posts, you will find everything you need to disgrace me (try reading my posts in the "intro" and "daily accountability")
I don't understand which doctrines that you are talking about, if they are busy with the right "sound doctrine" they wouldn't fall, maybe they are busy with another "sound to themselves doctrine"?
I understand one "true doctrine" and that is from God himself, there are other "doctrine" which may sound rational and logical (and contradicts each other)
When you say that men are created horny... Are you sure that is written in the bible?
Let me quote once more from 1Cor6:13
But the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
My best guess is that "God created a man, horny" is the "playboy" doctrine (forgive my blunt language), and I have fallen to that lies also, lies like; I need to "vent off", "release my steam", while I wait to get "moral sex", I have fallen to the lies, that sex is a need... that God created me to "have sex"... Since "all" men look at porn, maybe it's not so dangerous as it seems... But what a GREAT LIE it is, what a great cost it have, and what a cruel master, Lust is!
Do believe me, my experience in darkness is very painful, and porn (like how you describe it) NEVER satisfy me, I always end up looking- and looking -and looking for more, but lust comes even greater after just a few minutes, lust have eaten me alive, my heart grows cold, and I wore beatiful masks, shiny clothes while rotting inside. I have been drinking from the wrong cistern, I have been drinking salt water, bitter and only leaves me more thirsty, I came wanting for pleasure and relaxation, but I get only slavery and desperation.
Is this how God created me? To be enslaved by my sexual desire?
And let me share you, that one "true doctrine" is the one who set me free. I need Christ! He fulfills my needs, all of them! including my need for acceptance, my need for love. I still have a perfectly happy life even if I don't gratify myself, or meeting my sexual needs, I can get pleasure from playing my guitar now, chatting and talking with my friends ( I have time now, because I don't spend them looking for porn anymore ), there are literally thousands of innocent pleasures that God created (not just the sexual ones) and what a great life it is to enjoy these pleasures.
In this forum, you will find men who are trying to be free, and women trying very-very hard to forgive to the point of desperation. Telling the wives to forgive is good, but try wearing their shoes in a while, feel their broken heart, shed the tears they cry, pray for their husbands, exhort other men to get serious for their sins and repent. Then, and only then, take courage (if you still have it) , and tell these wives to forgive.
As for me, I don't have that courage yet, sometimes when I stumbled upon a "wives" thread, I felt kicked in the stomach, I cried for them, I realized what great sorrow they have, what great danger their marriage have, and what wrath God have over these sins. I still don't have enough courage to tell these wives to forgive.... I can only pray for them, and I plead... for you to pray for them and their families.
Last edited on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 08:57 am by Seeking God
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clean2day
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Posted: Thu Oct 4th, 2007 05:41 am |
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FOH
I was not trying to flame you, and Tim said it much better than I. My wife tried to be a good wife according to the Bible. In fact she was one of the best. It was I who fell into the lust and no matter what the partner does it is never enough for the addict.
What tropicalstorm said is true from the SO's side. If it was/is the spouses fault for not helping the addict "from the flame" then she would not be here. Yes, I do know/heard of some SO's that "just give up". But then living with someone that is not there for/with you when you are trying to be a "good wife" just who can blame them.
If you have ever lived with a person that you were trying to love and always got rejected you too would soon walk away.
FOH I wish you peace and joy and pray that you can understand the difference between the way the addict turns away those who loves them for their "drug/sin of choice". Then turns around and points their finger and says, "It's their fault."
I work in a recovery program for alcoholic and drug addicts. It's the same for a porn/sex addict. It is never the addicts fault. It's like if an addict gets picked up for speeding if the cops fault for getting the ticket. Only in the addicts mind. If he wasn't speeding it wouldn't matter where the cop was at he would not stop you and give you a ticket.
It's Jesus!
C2d
____________________
"When you need a victory, Jesus gives it.
When you need a friend, Jesus will be there.
When you need to talk, Jesus will listen.
And if you need to cry, Jesus will hold you close.
Rev E. O. Hilt 1908 - 1988
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decide2love
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Posted: Thu Oct 4th, 2007 06:19 pm |
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 FOH...
I have to vent here... I found no encouragement in any of your posts. To me it seems as if you are a disgruntled bystander who knows nothing of the pains or recoveries of being an SA or a COSA, nor of the joys or sorrows which come forth from recovery. Judging where you have not a leg to stand on because of the simple fact that you have not been there/here nor done that/this.
For me to receive counsel from an outsider, someone who has not been there... done that, would be detrimental at best. Tryng to force your opinion of how the Scripture should apply in my life is like your pointing the finger at a struggling fish out of water. It can't find it's way back to the stream without the proper help. The fox doesn't understand why it is struggling... after all it breathes air and is doing fine, so why can't the fish do it... So to help the fish, the fox simply eats it.
I do not come here with my pains, my joys, my shame, or suffered injustices toward myself nor toward others to be eaten by the fox. I come here as a fish struggling and asking for help to get back into the stream. Each of us bear each others burdens, we love each other through the tough spots and we rejoice in each others victories, and cry with each others sufferings.
At best, I found your posts painful and disheartening. It grieves me when a person of Christ tries to tell anyone how to live according to their inexperience. Christ was tempted in all ways and therefore could minister and love all in all areas. We as believers can minister to the body through the things which we have suffered, but certainly NOT from the things we have not suffered. I can love a person who has been through the loss of a loved one, and I can pray for them, and I can sympathize with them. I can hold their hand and love them through the grieving process, but I can not tell them to simply get over it and expect them to suddenly live in joy and be happy again. I have not lived through that experience. I can give them the Hope of Christ, I can lay hands on them and ask Christ to heal their hurts and to give comfort to them, but to expect them to just get over it because the Word says that they will see them again in Glory is not allowing a work to be completed in their lives and it is me demanding they stop in their tracks and 'suck it up' for my peace of mind because the death of their loved one did not effect me. Grieving and healing is a process they have to go through, THROUGH. I cannot push my walk in scripture toward their healing and then tell them that the reason they are not over it is because they have not done it the way I believe they should have. It is redundancy and it greatly dishonors the intention of Father using situations and circumstances in His children's lives to minister His healing through their trials and sufferings and processes for the purpose of bearing the burdens of others toward their restoration and healing. Who am I to simply tell them to get over it?
Who are you to tell me that I haven't done enough or I haven't been enough for my H when you haven't suffered this pain, you haven't had to go through this revocery process, and you know little to nothing of my heart or my situation having not been there yourself? Who are you to judge the majority of any given situation that you have taken no part in? Stay in your estate, don't be like the angels (messengers) who kept not their first estate and are now in chains because of their lack of agreement with Father. Hosea 4:6 'My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge'. I personally don't want to receive any more distruction from people who have a lack of knowlede (ie. an understanding) of my sufferings or my recovery.
Well intentioned people cause more destruction because they speak out of their shallow comprehension of a situation which they have not been a part of.
We seem to be complainers and whiners to you because you have little to no Wisdom in this area because you have not lived it. Speak and give counsel out of your experience, not your imaginings of how things ought to be.
I have to ask... Who is whining here about what? Well intentioned people whine about things they know nothing about because they have not walked in my well worn sandals and will not shut their well intentioned mouths because they see what their idea of euphoria should be for my life. "If you would just do it this way, if you would just believe this way, if you would just behave this way, if you would just follow my protocol, if you would just stop..." It's like the well intentioned on fire for God person standing on the side of the street franticly waving his bible at passers by and yelling at them, "You're going to Hell if you don't stop sinning!" It's the Truth, but it's not Love. It's condecending and condemnation and it does nothing to the unbeliever but turn him further away from the Love of God. It turns them off to Christ.
For me as a wife to keep giving my body to my H knowing full well that he is using it to fulfill his fantasy with whatever other woman he imagines me to be is desicrating the temple of God. I would be allowing my H to destroy me and to continue to destroy himself by fulfilling his lust for other women with my body. I would be allowing him to continue in his objectifying me and therefore sanctioning his sin within me, and within the temple of God. When my H and I share ourselves with each other and he turns the lights off and closes his eyes and refuses to connect with me as his wife, and I don't demand that he stay with me in sight and light, so he can see who he is with - I, as a wife am sanctioning his sin against me and against the Lord. I then become the sinner in allowing his sin to continue within me by the use of me. That doesn't mean that we don't ever share in each other, it means that there are boundaries of sanctity set for our marriage bed. If he doesn't want to comply with the boundaries, fine... but he doesn't get any without compliance. It means that I don't get any either, but it is a price I'm willing to pay for the purity of our marriage where my body is concerned.
Had Jacob had the oil lamp lit and his eyes open.........
Last edited on Fri Oct 5th, 2007 12:19 am by decide2love
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hopefulwife07
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Posted: Thu Oct 4th, 2007 10:58 pm |
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| Well said! Last edited on Thu Oct 4th, 2007 10:59 pm by hopefulwife07
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FOH
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Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 12:53 am |
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Decide2- I am certainly very sorry if I've offended you; I don't recall directing any comments toward you; I did refer to one statement made by Hopeful, which statement she said had been made in haste and out of context, thus I missed the point she was making.
I don't know your story. I fully agree that it is important to look at any situation from all perspectives rather than sitting only in our own circumstances and wallowing in self-pity over the injustices done to us by others. I do believe that it is important that we remind ourselves that forgiveness of others is indeed unconditional; we can't change our spouse's behaviors, but we can change how we respond to them, sometimes in some positive ways that affect for the better.
I would be tempted to respond point by point, but I doubt that would be useful, since you didn't actually address the specifics of my posts. I hope that you and your spouse get things all worked out and your life from here on out is terrific.
BTW, Tropical, I grew up Baptist, and am probably more in sync with Baptist theology and most of the basic Calvinist teachings than any other denomination. My comment there was an apparently too obscure and feeble joke response to the old Baptist joke about why they don't make love standing up. It wasn't a knock on the denomination where my favorite preacher still resides.
Seeking- my reference to "sound doctrine" was a quote from Titus 2 (NIV and WEB). I am sad to hear about your story; I think that one misunderstanding here is that some seem to infer that I make light of the struggles of true addicts. That is not my intent at all and I apologize if I have been so imprecise of language as to leave thta impression. Reading some of these stories tells me that there are many who have suffered grievously from losing the control of their lives to powerfully addictive forces, and because we wrestle against powers and principalities, they are there. My first post was a response to the question about whether the wronged spounse is ever to blame- and my answer was "no- but look in the mirror to see if you have contributed, because we are each responsible for our own behaviors". My concern has been that I think the term "addiction", when it is overapplied tends to get watered down by too-broad definitions. When people rattle off statistics about pervasiveness of porn, etc., the inevitable conclusion to be drawn is that 75% of the church population is helplessly cruising the internet in a constant state of drooling lust, as evidenced by looking at sensual and erotic pictures of whatever type.
I quarrel with that characterization- there is a difference between people, along the full continuum of compulsions and interests in sex, and the extremes that lead to stories like Mike G.'s, where he was virtually a newlywed, and yet called a hooker on a business trip. I just don't see that equating to even ordering some pay-per-view movie (which I've also never done) in terms of impact on a spouse. Some of the zealots overapply. I am sure that caution doesn't characterize those of you here who have fallen under addiction yourselves- you know what power it all had over you.
In the responses I've seen, those who were truly sex-addicted have been humble and seeking God's growth in their lives. In contrast, the comments I've seen from wronged spouses, in what is admittedly a very small sample, since I haven't had time to go far into archives (this was about the first thread I saw after reading an article by Mike that I reacted to), have seemed to me to talk almnost exclusively about how terrible their husband's behaviors were and are (and I assume that they were/are), but never looking inward at all; maybe that is on other threads I haven't seen. Just wondered. When my wife has a beef with me- and you can imagine how awful I am to live with- I do try to look at myself to see where I messed up- and she's usually right, which I acknowledge to her.
And, come on, Seeking, the shot about my stating that "men are horny" and where is that in the Bible- Paul does acknowledge it, though he does not make gender distinctions; it was very much understood in the context of the time, if you look at ME history from the 300 BCE to 100 CE era. But we also know from biology, biochemistry, and cultural anthropology; and God made us that way, and said it was "good". If you like, I will provide academic references (for example, read the bibliography of Prof. Steven Rhoads' "Taking Sex Differences Seriously").
Last edited on Sat Oct 6th, 2007 01:27 am by FOH
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TimM
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Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 01:37 pm |
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Friends,
Obviously this thread is rapidly becoming too painful to continue to read, but I'd still like to celebrate the unity and support it has managed to draw forth. All of us having experience in their own lives with the subject of this board or having any understanding of addiction, addicts and partners alike, have spoken with one voice. I feel a lot of love from all of us for one another. We've all done excellently.
Perhaps it's time to celebrate that love and unity and to step aside from further engagement with someone who can't right now share that understanding and unity, and who isn't yet ready to see that he is here causing more suffering. I don't think we're understanding the pain that brought him here any better than he is understanding our pain, and I hate the prospect of seeing us further angered and distracted trying to help somebody we can't help. We're supporting one another well in our own recovery, and perhaps it's time to return to that central task.
Just how it seems to me, of course.
Do well, friends. Your love and support for one another have been a joy to behold.
Tim M.
Last edited on Sat Oct 6th, 2007 04:44 pm by TimM
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B
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 07:56 am |
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| It doesn't matter who is to blame. Jesus ENDED it once and for all by his death on the cross. That is all that matters.
____________________
O Christ, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world. Have Mercy upon us.
http://housemdiv.blogspot.com/
http://www.extremetheology.com/
http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com/
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Hisheart
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Posted: Sun Dec 2nd, 2007 10:23 am |
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FOH wrote:
I'd like to make a couple of observations that really jump out from the posts on this forum, and seem to crystallize here on this thread; I suspect that this post is going to be a bit different in tone from what I've seen here before. I also believe that Christians can talk about these things openly in good spirit, so I am going to be brave and risk the flameouts.
When you have a new hammer, everything needs to be pounded. When you are a chiropractor, you take X-rays and you immediately determine that everyone needs to be adjusted three times a week for the rest of her or his life. If you are an obstetrician, everyone needs a C-section, while if you are a midwife, every baby can safely be delivered normally. If you are a therapist, everyone needs therapy. And here, if you are a male of relatively normal sex drive and ever looked at an erotic picture- from (literally, I saw this described by one person) the Sears catalog underwear ads to porn, or masturbated, you are a sex addict. And your wife is a victim.
I think that we need to be careful not to 1) cheapen the terminology, and the very real syndrome, of addiction by characterizing absolutely every impulse surrendered to, every habit, or pattern of behavior, as being "addiction"; and, 2) we are called by God to look at ourselves honestly- I wonder if some of the wounded-spouse-as-victim talk doesn't risk becoming either almost narcissistic self-absorption or self-exoneration. No marriage has ever been populated by one totally guilty party paired with one total innocent.
Now, at the outset, let me say that bad behavior is bad behavior, and sin is sin. If a spouse forsakes his or her partner in favor of affairs, chronic masturbation, and effectively forsakes the marriage in favor of porn, that is wrong, and should be condemned. The person who does that is wrong, period, and makes his or her (let's face it, it is most often the "he" even though there certainly are a few women who struggle with compulsive masturbation; the numbers are overwhelmingly skewed toward males) own decision to sin, usually repeatedly.
There is no question that sexual addiction exists, and so does pornography addiction. But we need to make distinctions between the extremes; I see a lot of equating the mundane with the outrageous. No matter how many times we write things that misapply Matthew 5:28 (where Jesus was, brick by brick, tearing down the legalistic self-righteousness of the Pharisees by illustration, not conducting a seminar on the definition of adultery) and equate the visual appreciation of someone walking by wearing form-fitting blue jeans with physical coitus, the two are not the same- and none of us really believe that they are. I bet that every one of the wives of porn-viewing men who stay married but vent here would throw the bum out if he actually had sex with another woman.
So the question is, where in the Bible does it say that if your husband has a lustful thought, you should be "devastated" and cut him off from sex? How does that help make him focus on his wife instead of the very real outside temptations? I don't see any place where Paul says that married people should embrace chastity as punishment for sin; in fact, he actually says that he wishes everyone had a low sex drive like his, but he understands that they don't. So, he counsels us to get married and have sex like crazy to work off the lust. You can't get much more blunt and clear than 1st Corinthians 7. Verse 5 doesn't say that sex should be rationed in proportion to his good behavior, it says that we should not deprive each other or our wrong passions will take us over. What it most emphatically says is that we are not supposed to think about ourselves, we are supposed to meet the needs of the other- and that doesn't mean keeping score or deciding for ourselves how much is enough or too much for someone else. You can't determine what your spouse's sex drive should be any more than he can determine what you should want to eat.
There is no question in my mind that Jesus dealt with sexual temptation and had sexual thoughts, because He was tempted in every way that man is, allowing Him to fully understand what we deal with as humans; He was ultimately masculine, not an ascetic metrosexual. Thoughts of temptation, like He suffered are not sin.
Testosterone is non-discriminating; boys want to look at girls' bodies before they even have a clue why or are capable of doing anything about it. We are just made that way. People (of course, sometimes women; but far fewer) will be sexually driven, as Paul recognizes, we will "burn". That's why God provided the gift of marriage as the means to deal with that; there will be a sexual compulsion, we are to channel that into our marriages, to make our spouses the focus of it. If we are told by our spouses that they don't want to be that focus, whether by words, or sexual refusal, or by those subtle "stay away" signals, we get the hint, and that focus shifts elsewhere where it shouldn't go. But biochemistry guarantees that there will still be a sexual focus as long as it isn't burned off regularly, unless we do one of two things: a) sublimate it completely in the sort of quasi-celibacy cloaked in spirituality that some describe here, or b) use estrogen therapy to neutralize all the testosterone.
People who are unwilling to satisfy their spouses sexually are sinning. Period. Failure to live up to the vows on the other side and give your body as a gift to your spouse is equally sin, as much as any porn habit, though it is never discussed as such. Does it excuse the other spouse's acts? No- but we are not supposed to be keeping score or thinking about "fairness". Paul doesn't say anything remotely like that sort of bargaining. I wonder if anyone has ever really dealt with a spouse's lust or porn habits the way Paul instructs- by basically wearing him/her out with the good stuff so that he/she is drained of other desire. I suspect that a contributing factor in almost every non-pathological case of the porn habit (which I suspect is most of them) is the fact that there is not much going on at home. Again, it doesn't excuse the other's sin, but refusal, whatever the excuse is, is just as sinful as other-directed lust.
That's why I wonder why one poster here (above) says: "I asked God for help to love my husband and be there for him sexually so he got his needs met. The only thing that happened was that he only wanted more and more. It was never enough…" Who gets to decide what it means for his needs to be met? If you say that he just wanted more and more, well, how does that contradict the Song of Solomon? And how on earth does it hurt to do it more and more, whatever that means? How long does it really take, how unpleasant is it, how much horrible work is it to just make love several times a week? I suspect that the problem here is that we have a wife who simply is indifferent to sex, or perhaps even doesn't like it much, so it doesn't happen much. If your wife tells you to take you sexual focus off of her, it doesn't go away, it just gets redirected to the next object. We may not like it, it isn't the Christian ideal, but it is reality. And Paul clearly understood that.
I once heard a call on a radio show to the sainted Christian marriage counselor, Dr. Willard Harley ("His Needs, Her Needs", etc.) by a woman where she said, "Why should I have to have sex if I don't feel like it?", basically suggesting that her mood should be the arbiter of the marriage bed. He replied, "Because you're married. That is the core of being married."
For a man, the testosterone cycle is on average 36 to 48 hours. That means that if you make love in some way (coitus, oral, manual, whatever; the spouse with lesser desire should be the one to decide how to do it, what position, etc.) 3 or 4 times a week, the rest of the time most will be in a cycle trough and usually not all buzzed up. I just don't understand why 15 minutes every other day is an investment too demanding for the health of a marriage. No one is that tired- they seem able to find energy when the activity required is something else.
And I don't believe that refusal excuses someone else's failures, but it is still just as much sin to refuse as it is for the other to look elsewhere for satisfaction. Denying a spouse is just as self-absorbed as is porn plus masturbation, and that refusal is not only selfish, it is controlling.
And we need to be careful with the terminology of characterizing married sex as a sort of sacrament; was designed to be fun. It's not worship, to be done once a month like taking communion. Sometimes it is magical in the context of living marriage, but those very golden moments are relatively few and far between. The rest of the time, it is a bit messy, but essential unless neither husband nor wife cares about it. If either one wants love, Paul tells us to do it. In the long run, among loving adults this negotiates out to something fulfilling and sustainable.
I think that a lot of "sex addicts" are relatively normal people who followed Paul's dictate to get married, and found out afterward that it takes two to make that part work. Are there real sex addicts? Of course. Are there also immature people who actually prefer fantasy to the reality of human flesh? Sure. Is actual adultery a violent assault on the marriage relationship and deeply wounding to a partner? Very much so. Is there a popular culture of promoting porneia? Yep. That's why God in His infinite grace and wisdom gave us spouses, as Tim LaHaye wrote in his very good Christian sex manual, The Act of Marriage.
I agree with much of what you said. We as humans tend to make formulas out of nearly everything. I do want to comment on something though. First, You probably don't understand how much it hurts to know that you are not your husband's one and only, even if it's only in his mind. Try to picture the perspective of many women. Let's say you adore your wife and you desire only her sexually. No matter how much weight she gains, or wrinkles that appear on her face, she is your standard of beauty, and she is your only sexual desire. You are imprinted to her. Then you walk in and find her looking at a male who appears to be half your age and rippling muscles. She is so captivated by him that she doesn't even notice you walk in. She begins to pleasure herself. You make a loud noise so she knows you are there. She is embarrassed and then feels guilty. She explains that she is addicted and needs help. You love her and want to help her, but you feel like she just stabbed you with a knife. Now as you set out to help her, she gets angry if you show her that you have any amount of distrust, or any hurt. You always wonder if you are the one she's thinking of when you are making love. When you are out in public she stares at all the teenage guys. Slowly you realize that without a miracle from God you can never be what your spouse desires. How can she possibly find you sexually appealling, let alone exclusively, when she is feasting her eyes on fresh skinned males half your age. You realize that you are going to continue to age but her taste wil not age with you. Through all of this, she has the attitude that while she knows it's wrong, it's just between her and God and shouldn't upset you.
How is this not devastating? Now as to the issue of a husband having lustful thouts and kicking him out of bed. No she shouldn't kick him out of bed, but will he be honest with her about what he's thinking during sex? If his thoughts are not on her during that time,then they do need to take a break from sex, and seriously seek the Lord for healing in this matter, because thst will form a habit that will be harder to break once it stops, and this definitely defiles the marriage bed. She needs to love him, support him, and try to understand him, but he also needs to try to understand her heart and how she feels. It is like getting cut with a knife all over again when a man acts like she doesn't have the right to feel violated by his lusting after others. If his attitude about her pain is flippant, then he is very likely not repentant at all.
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