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Jodie77
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 09:02 pm |
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My fiance and I have been together on and off for 3 years. We were engaged and broke up the first time due to his excess porn use. Exchanging hard core porn dvds frequently and searching the internet on some very disturbing sites lead me to feel betrayed and heart broken and I left him, but not after several years of my fighting this tooth and nail and trying to get him to see the damage it was causing. Sex became so unfulfilling...I felt like I was friction for his fantasies. I could tell he wasn't thinking of me during the act and there was a major disconnect when we had sex. He became less aroused and suggested it was because we were fighting or he was tired. He only wanted to have sex in the middle of the day and never at night when it felt intimate. He sometimes couldn't get erect for me but never had a problem staying erect for the porn.
We broke up and after six months are trying to work things out again. Even though the frequency has been majorly reduced and he truly is making HUGE strides to get better he still looks at porn about once a week or every other week but calls them "slip ups." He has been looking at it since he was 12 and he's now 32.
He swears he doesn't have a problem and that "every guy masturbates." He knows I left him the first time because of it and doesn't realize why I want to break up again; he says I'm too sensitve and unrealistic and that he is working on it. He told me that I am beautiful and it has nothing to do with me and he looks at porn because it is "entertaining" like a good movie or race car. He is incapable of intimacy but it very affectionate and fun, so I am confused at times. I am very uninhibited and not shy in the bedroom but he still has to look at porn. Why does he need this if he has me and if he sees the damage it is causing? He said I'm not in competition with the porn, it has nothing to do with me, and he would never want to marry any of those girls.
I have so much resentment towards him (even though he is trying to get better) whenever I find it I want to lose it and hurt him. I am angry and feel betrayed and hurt beyond words. I don't think he'll ever get this out of his life for good...and I will be married worrying every day if he looked at porn.
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Joel2:25
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 10:11 pm |
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Jodie77 wrote:
I have so much resentment towards him (even though he is trying to get better) whenever I find it I want to lose it and hurt him. I am angry and feel betrayed and hurt beyond words. I don't think he'll ever get this out of his life for good...and I will be married worrying every day if he looked at porn.
I don't have a lot of time, but hon! You've been treated like a dog for 3 years and now you're getting ready to marry this? DON'T!
There are lots of people who can get into the whys and hows and what you can do now, and if he truly becomes remorseful and starts the recovery process. But take it from myself (and many other women) do NOT knowingly marry an active porn addict. Weekly, every other week, porn usage is not a "slip". It's an active addiction.
Marriage isn't going to help this at all. It will only make it worse.
Must run, will try to post back later, HUGS!
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alpha
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 11:02 pm |
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Jodie77 wrote: Why does he need this if he has me and if he sees the damage it is causing?
The simple answer is that he doesn't see the damage that it is doing. He is blind to it. He thinks he can have both, you and the sexual fantasies. Your description of how it effects your sex life is well-stated. It isn't intimacy he is going after, it is a high. That's why he will disengage from you if need be and go to his mind. The high is self-serving. But that is all he understands about sex. It's a medicine to fill his emptiness. And it doesn't fill it for long. Probably, he thinks it would all work out if you just started thinking about sex a little more like he did and that two people pursuing the high would be better than just him.
When he says he loves you - he means it as much as he understands what that means. To him it means he loves the way you make him feel about himself. He doesn't feel as empty and unlovable and worthless and he is pleased with what having a girlfriend says to the rest of the world about him. He probably enjoys your company and your companionship and your conversations when they don't demand something of him or put him on the defensive. He loves that you accept him as he is (until you don't). What is missing, what he's never considered, what he doesn't get is that you aren't happy in the arrangement. Maybe you've never told him. Maybe you've told him but he argued with you until he convinced you that you were happy. Maybe he put you down to the point where you don't believe that you'll ever find anyone else but him. He'll probably do whatever it takes to keep you there (short of change) to keep telling himself that he is worth of love and acceptance even though he doesn't like himself.
He's rationalized it to himself every way he can. All guys do it. (There are a lot of guys that do, just so you know - he's not a freak in the sense that he's the only guy on earth that does this) Love has nothing to do with sex, in his mind. But both love and sex have everything to do with him feeling better about himself in the short term. Not closer to you. Better about himself. Somewhere in his mind, he knows one day you'll get smart and leave him. He knows that because he thinks he's unlovable. He doesn't like himself much more than you do. That's why he presses for compliments and validation and sex but it's never enough. He still feels alone and unlovable. He maintains a safe distance and self-protection so he doesn't get too hurt when you do leave him.
He has no idea how hurt you are by it all. He thinks how can you be hurt? He's the one that's hurting, he's the one with the problem? Explaining it too him won't really penetrate his fog. The words you use will never convey the feelings you have about this in a way he will understand. He is incapable of understanding it. He doesn't know how to love a woman. He doesn't get that as a women you are different from him. He doesn't get that you think differently from him. When you started dating you were looking for someone to cherish you and protect you and devote all his attention to you. For him, he was looking for a buddy with breasts and vagina with whom he could have sex and play out some of his fantasies and who by staying with him would communicate to the world that he was okay. There is an enormous disconnect in your expectations for the relationship. He'd probably be happy if things stayed exactly as the are but for you to complain about his weak areas a little less. You aren't even happy now.
You're mad at his symptoms - there's a little insight his condition underlying those symptoms and how your relationship dovetails right into his insatiable neediness. The result is what ever validation your boyfriend has been receiving from your relationship is a lie and your feelings have been trampled on time and time again. Whatever emotional nuturishment that you one day hope to get from him will never come until he recognizes how much he's hurting you. He won't recognize it until he recognizes how empty he is inside and that the ways he's trying to meet that emptiness aren't effective in the long term.
Maybe you should break up. Maybe you shouldn't. I'm not one to say. But, you don't sound like you even like the guy you are about to marry. You are preparing to marry a guy with the hope that he might one day change and that is a foolish thing to do. He's probably not a horrible person; everyone has there weaknesses and God loves each of us in spite of them. But you don't sound like you are prepared to accept that his emotional weaknesses manifest themselves in viewing porn and that it will be a hard struggle when he finally decides to work on it for real.
Last edited on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 11:10 pm by alpha
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Jodie77
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 11:13 pm |
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Love has nothing to do with sex, in his mind. You are so right. He has said that sex to him is dirty, and the reason he enjoys the porn is because the girls are being degraded and they like it. He maintains a safe distance and self-protection so he doesn't get too hurt when you do leave him. This is so true. After telling him I was going to end the engagement yet AGAIN he says, "Well I've tried everything I can. I guess I'll chalk it up as a loss." Meanwhile, we have a home being built.
He has no idea how hurt you are by it all. He thinks how can you be hurt? He's the one that's hurting, he's the one with the problem? Explaining it to him won't really penetrate his fog. The words you use will never convey the feelings you have about this in a way he will understand. He is incapable of understanding it. He tells me that I am over-reacting and that he doesn't understand why I go to extremes with my "hurt."
You are preparing to marry a guy with the hope that he might one day change and that is a foolish thing to do. I agree. He tells me everyday that he knows looking at porn is wrong and not "conducive to a healthy relationship" and he will give it up. Then he'll change his tune a week later and say he doesn't have a problem.
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HopelesslyDesperate
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 11:18 pm |
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I completely agree with Joel2:25. I married my husband not knowing he had an addiction to pornography, but definitely knowing he used it and it would be a problem. Please don't marry him unless he takes SERIOUS steps to end his addiciton. I think you have codependency with him. By ignoring this or letting it slide and even considering spending your life with this man, you're enabling his addiction. My husband and I were at each other's throats for 4 months after we were married because he thought I was just overreacting. He said it kept him interested in me because it provided variety. Your man already has lost interest in you sexually. You think you will ever feel wanted when strange women he will never meet can arouse him when you, in the flesh in front of him can't arouse him? Please, from another woman, don't do this to yourself. You need to have respect for yourself, your morals, your feelings and know that you deserve more than that.
My husband used to tell me he's not a cheater. I always said just because he's never cheated doesn't mean he won't. In my mind, it was a matter of time. Luckily, he started taking steps to recover before it got that far. Porn addiciton escalates. It will get worse. If he's still doing it that often he is not trying to quit.
I have so much resentment towards him (even though he is trying to get better) whenever I find it I want to lose it and hurt him. I am angry and feel betrayed and hurt beyond words. I don't think he'll ever get this out of his life for good...and I will be married worrying every day if he looked at porn.
You WILL always wonder if you get married and your resentment will continue to grow. Every second of every day. You will feel used in bed. You can already tell he's not with you when you have sex. As long as those images pollute his mind, he won't be with you. I'm not saying to give up on him completely. But don't get married with this knowledge. I have been separated from my husband for 2 and a half months now. I WILL NOT allow him back home until I'm convinced that porn is out of his life. He hasn't watched it in over a month, but we have some healing to do first. It really scares me that you can "invite" that sin into your home by marrying a man you know is in bondage to it. Marriage will not help. It will make things ten times worse.
I am so scared for you. I will keep you in my prayers that you have the strength to stand up for God and yourself and postpone or cancel this wedding until progress has been made, if it will be made.
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Jodie77
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 11:25 pm |
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It really scares me that you can "invite" that sin into your home by marrying a man you know is in bondage to it.
What a great observation. You know I never thought about it as inviting it into my home, but that is exactly what I would be doing. Lately, every day instead of dreaming of our new home and our life together and all the happiness we will have, I instead think about the constant worrying and resentment I will feel wondering if he's looked at porn while I was at work. I can't live like that.
And quite frankly he doesn't have a lot of interest for me the way he should. He's only interested in sex in the middle of the day when our clothes are half off, not during the night when we are snuggling in bed, when we should feel a connection and intimacy. It is sickening to me.
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HopelesslyDesperate
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 11:29 pm |
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My husband didn't realize how much I was hurt until I was forced to get a restraining order and he was unable to speak to me for 10 days. He broke down and cried like a baby for weeks because he realized how much it hurt me everytime I found his porn, everytime he watched me cry and did it anyway, everytime he took his wedding ring off so that he could P&M without the guilt. He hit rock bottom. I don't think your man will realize it until he loses everything. But, honestly, I don't think you're everything to him. If he can actually say that he would chalk it up to a loss if you left, sweetheart, open your eyes. Despite everything and his failure to care at all about my feelings, my husband didn't want to lose me.
PS...if he really thinks that those girls like being degraded he should read some of the stories from porn stars who tell how much they hated it, couldn't have any kind of normal relationship, ended up with STDs because they weren't allowed to use condoms, and have lost their families completely. This only touches on it.
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HopelesslyDesperate
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 11:32 pm |
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Wow, I see a lot of my situation in yours. Before we were married, we had sex mostly during the day as well. He would never stay at my place. The worrying though, will never end. I didn't sleep for those four months after I started finding his porn when we got married. Then I asked him to leave. I sit up in bed and listen. Just listen. I knew what I would find on his computer the next morning before I looked. He wouldn't come to bed until 5 and I got up at 6:30. I never slept, I hardly ate, and I never smiled. My family was heartbroken with worry about me. I don't want to see another woman go through that hell if she's got the chance not to.
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gaylon
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 11:40 pm |
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My 2 cents: re-read Alpha's post. From another addict - it's all true. If you don't like what you read, really think twice or three times about getting married to the guy... My wife has suffered through 30 years of on-again off-again acting out. But, in truth, mostly "on". And, the whole time, I was *trying* to quit, but didn't know how. If he's not trying, there's really not much hope for a fulfilling marriage... Praying for you, as for my wife, and all the hurt ladies here...
Last edited on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 11:45 pm by gaylon
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TimM
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 12:46 am |
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I agree with the concerns others have raised.
Here's my take, also as an addict:
Sex addiction is real addiction. It's not addiction lite, and it can't be overcome by recovery lite. I know lots of multiply addicted people (which is common), and I don't know that I have ever heard anyone say that they found it easier to recover from SA than from alcohol or cocaine addiction. I know lots of people who are finding SA harder.
This isn't to say that recovery isn't possible. I know people who have been sober for years or decades. It is to say that recovery is difficult.
With all that in mind, I'd like to look at your comments that your fiancé is working on it and has tried everything he can. If he were addicted to drugs or alcohol, then doing everything he could to overcome his addiction would include
- Counseling.
- 12-step or other support groups.
- Getting a sponsor.
- Working the steps.
- Calling other addicts and being accountable.
- Prayer.
- Journaling.
- Reading about addiction and recovery.
- Honesty with clergy and close friends and family.
- In-patient rehab programs.
Maybe other things.
The same steps are appropriate for someone seeking recovery from other addictions, like his. I've certainly done all these things except for the in-patient programs, and I would look seriously at those if I hadn't found sobriety for now by using he other means.
Most people seem to need most or all of those things, sometimes for years, to attain some balance and sobriety and recovery.
So has he really done everything he can, or is he still leaving some of this out? And if he is not willing now to make recovery the central priority of his life, when do you think he will be able to do that?
My history on this isn't good. My wife and I were together for 30 years before I became willing to go to any lengths to recover, and before I made any appreciable positive movement toward sobriety. That means that we spent 30 years growing slowly apart, and that I was distant and isolated and angry and emotionally unavailable for the whole time our oldest child was at home, and for much of the lives of the others. The effects of that abuse and neglect are still being worked through by all of us. We're fiding some joy and healing now, but it has been years of real hell.
A lot of addicts are like me.
I certainly think that someone serious about recovery can make a good spouse. Being forced by one's addiction to be open and honest and self-reflective and emotionally engaged can be good. But with others, I would certainly encourage you to wait to marry until you see him really changing, really learning to feel and express emotions, really becoming open and feeling joy, really opening up honestly with others.
Recovery isn't subtle. You'll know when it's there. And unless you are ready to spend years or decades or the rest of your life with someone who is gradually withdrawing and losing emotional availability and who is perhaps slowly or quickly escalating to more extreme addictive behavior, then being cautious now might make sense.
Just my own experience, of course, and no one else's.
Tim M.
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Jodie77
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 12:55 am |
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My wife and I were together for 30 years before I became willing to go to any lengths to recover, and before I made any appreciable positive movement toward sobriety.
I commend you for your honesty and humility and for getting help. Thank you for your insight.
I have a question though that I just can't seem to find an answer to. Why do men want to get married if they have this sexual addiction? Why do they want to even have sex with their wife? Because I can't imagine they are fulfilled by it...I think the husband is just "using" her. Does he just want her for a companion and someone to feel secure with? Why isn't her sexual appearance and abilities enough? I would never want to look at porn or look at another man in a sexual way when I am with my fiance. If I felt that I needed "more" than I would never get married in the first place because I would feel like something is seriously lacking.
For the life of me I don't understand why her sexuality isn't enough. And even though I understand this to be an "addiction" I don't understand how he can still love his wife and want to be with her....it doesn't make sense to me. Please forgive me for being ignorant...and I'm not trying to be judgmental. I just really want to make sense of it.
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gaylon
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 02:07 am |
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I will only speak for myself, as best I can describe it. It can be different for each man, but the general theme is there.
I was addicted to sex (masturbation) by the time I was 13 or 14. To understand this, you should read the Buxton article. This will save alot of explanation, and does a better job than I could:
http://byubroadcasting.org/secrets/transcript/Buxton_transcript_2003.htm
This article also describes how a boy's personality splits. He lives in two separate worlds, and this continues into adulthood, unless it's addressed by counseling earlier (which is rare, I'd say).
My counselor said 95% of the men he sees were 1) sexually abused as a child and 2) started masturbation and/or porn in their early teens, or earlier. This applies, in my observation to most of the men who post on this forum.
As the Buxton article says, sex becomes, in the formative years, the way that the boy deals with emotional stresses and pain. He has a safe place, that feels really good, and is available on demand, without any requirements. He doesn't learn to form emotional bonds. The pictures are images of girls that, by God's design, trigger powerful chemicals in the brain, very much like a cocaine or heroine high. The viewing of the pictures is outside God's plan for sexuality, but the boy doesn't make that association. Same for masturbation. Feels great; soothes pain. The boy turns more and more into himself. The girls in the pictures are a part of the alternate, fantasy world. No relation to reality. And, I could even completely forget about that fantasy world two hours after I'd masturbated to porn. When stresses hit, the urge comes, and the brain goes into a fog. You almost don't even know what you're doing, and reality around you fades away for that time. It's a powerful experience that becomes the way the boy deals with difficulties, instead of by relationships with other people. And, it carries right over into adult years. Counter to a woman's view, I had no desire or intention to know the girls. They smiled at me, and approved of me (in my subconcious mind), but mostly I was observing body parts, and my brain was delivering the chemical in response, and it felt wonderfully good. No demands, and on demand.
I got married for a few reasons. My wife loved me, and I needed and wanted that love. She loved God, so I knew I could trust her. She was (is) beautiful and sweet. And, I wanted *real* sex. Selfish, but true. I didn't know much about the "real" her, and that continued until several years ago when I started making a concerted effort to learn to observe and know her. As an adult, I always wanted to leave behind the p & m, but wasn't willing to tell her, because I didn't want to hurt her. I had no clue that she'd rather be hurt, but know about it, and try to work it out with me. I thought I should be able to work it out on my own, but failed again and again. After I did the deed, I would pray, and repent the best I could, and stuff the experience as far down in my subcouncious as I could. I would sometimes ponder how beautiful and good my own wife was (in an effort to bring reality to the experience), even as I was doing the deed -- almost on autopilot, and out of my control, it seemed (thus, "addiction"). So afterward, with the experience "stuffed", I still had a raging sex drive, and could have sex with her, and fully enjoy her (I thought) two hours after I had indulged, and be fully focused on her body, voice, etc. Very rare for me to bring any other pictures into my head. Now, I'm learning that there is a much deeper level of intimacy, which makes the whole experience much more meaningful and intense.
Women understandably jump to the conclusion that they're being compared to the girls in the pictures, and can't measure up. For me, it just didn't occur to me to compare them. I didn't seek relationships with them - didn't even occur to me. It wasn't real life. Although, over time the idea started coming to my head to seek out live sex outside of marriage, which is what scared me and drove me to get help. Two different worlds, completely detached from each other, other than in the residual, and cumulative bad effects of the p&m world on intimacy. My understanding is that women do not experience this "compartmentalization" that men experience in many different areas of life, so it's really not possible for them to fully understand or even believe that a man can experience that. For me, the issue has absolutely nothing to my wife not being enough; it had to do with the draw to the fantasy, instant-fix solution that I'd had since young teen years. Wife not in that picture. Just the way it is. But, every woman I've read has the same reaction, and difficulty understanding, and feels the same hurt, and pain, rejection, insufficiency, anger, drop in self-esteem. And, I needed to know in great detail about that, since it convicts my soul, and helps me repent.
Now that I'm "in recovery", it's been extremely painful to learn to let the feelings and emotions come, and very difficult learning how to deal with them and process them without resorting to the fantasy solution. And, Satan speaks the lie that it's impossible, and useless to try, and that I'm 'bad', and that my wife probably really wants to get out (which she always assures me otherwise). Pretty much every day. And I'm only slowly learning to trust Jesus and his love, and to yield to Him. And, every conversation with my wife about the subject is like having a root canal, and only feels better after extending talking things out. I just try to have faith every day that it will get better at some point.
I think I just did a complete brain dump (small load, eh)... Maybe not as coherent as it could be, but hopefully gets across the ideas, and is of some help...
--- Gaylon V.
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Jodie77
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 02:35 am |
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I think I just did a complete brain dump (small load, eh)... Maybe not as coherent as it could be, but hopefully gets across the ideas, and is of some help...
--- Gaylon V.
No, this was awesome and helped as well. Everyone has been enlightening and I appreciate it. I'm starting to understand the "separation" more. I just could never separate sex from love so it made no sense to me. And knowing that the man I love so much could do that made me feel horrible anger and resentment. I actually felt like I was being cheated on...as if he were literally sleeping with other women.
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gaylon
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 02:52 am |
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Jodie77 wrote: I actually felt like I was being cheated on...as if he were literally sleeping with other women. Common expression by the ladies, and I can understand it. And, it has true basis in scripture. I just never considered it that way... But I'm learning to internalize that principle now...
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Jodie77
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 02:58 am |
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| So would you suggest to NOT get married until it is completely resolved? What scares me is that I hear of all thse "30 year battles" and that is disheartening because I couldn't live in that pain for all those years. Do you think more men than not look at porn statistically speaking? Shouldn't I try to find someone who doesn't have this problem? Because I can honestly say our intimacy is so tainted....and he doesn't even realize it.
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gaylon
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 03:39 am |
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Jodie77 wrote: So would you suggest to NOT get married until it is completely resolved? What scares me is that I hear of all thse "30 year battles" and that is disheartening because I couldn't live in that pain for all those years. Do you think more men than not look at porn statistically speaking? Shouldn't I try to find someone who doesn't have this problem? Because I can honestly say our intimacy is so tainted....and he doesn't even realize it.
Check the stats on the BG home page. Very high percentages, even of men in the ministry. Find someone w/o the problem? - Very delicate issue, and a decision only you can make, but, if it were my daughter in the same situation (and, as a matter of fact, she was in a very similar situation), I would (and did) tell her to, at the very least, move out and quit being intimate with him until he, at a minimum, commits his life to Jesus, and shows some committed and positive direction, as Tim outlined so well in this thread. And not move back in with him or be intimate until it was in marriage. I laid it out for him everything he needed to do before he could consider marrying my daughter, and to my extreme surprise, he did it all. Very, very rare, in my experience. He's remained committed to the Lord (also way against the odds), and, in spite of some bumpy spots in the road, they're working together to raise a baby. I suspect your father would want at least as good for you... If your bf doesn't deliver, then you have to consider what you really really want in a marriage, and find someone else who can give it to you...
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alpha
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 03:44 am |
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Jodie77 wrote: So would you suggest to NOT get married until it is completely resolved? What scares me is that I hear of all thse "30 year battles" and that is disheartening because I couldn't live in that pain for all those years. Do you think more men than not look at porn statistically speaking? Shouldn't I try to find someone who doesn't have this problem? Because I can honestly say our intimacy is so tainted....and he doesn't even realize it.
I was typing you a reply to some of your questions and then I read gaylon's and he pretty much nailed it.
Many of the answers to your questions are Mars/Venus answers. Men and Women look at sex, love, relationships and fulfillment differently. And all of that is separate from the fact that your boyfriend is insensitive to your feelings and using porn and mastubation to self-medicate on a regular basis. Giving you the answers from a male perspective is kind of academic. Women don't see things this way - men do. When you know how men see these things, it's easier to understand how they fall into the trap of sexual addiction. But it doesn't change that they fell into the trap.
Of all the things that I could possibly have gotten myself addicted to, drugs, drinking, gambling, etc. sex seems like a perfectly reasonable and likely candidate. It is always available and for the most part it cost less than the other addictive behaviors. None of that changes that it hurts my loved ones and damaged my ability to relate to people.
Why do they want to even have sex with their wife? Because I can't imagine they are fulfilled by it...I think the husband is just "using" her.
You talked "fulfillment". I've done a lot of reading and put a lot of work into my attempts to understand women, but still I don't know what you mean by that. You say fulfillment to me, and I start thinking about if I am happy at my job. I don't think I've ever heard a man say that he was fulfilled by sex. A man's sex drive is a burden that he spends a life-time trying to make peace with. Biologically, a man feels that he must have sex. A man feels that he must have release. This is especially strong in his teens and twenties when he is single and when he has many opportunties to navigate this course on this own. It is likely that he trains himself to focus on the release - the high, the change in thought pattern, the relaxation the calm of the emotions. Often there is objectification. Never is there love involved. A habit is formed and depedency. It is a learned behavior whose full negative effects are not obvious in the beginning.
If the guy is religious and has lots of shame, he thinks maybe when I'm married, I won't struggle so bad. I will have a wife to meet these needs. But he doesn't realize that his wife is not the same as him. She hasn't been undergoing the same sexual struggles during her teenage years. She doesn't find the same disconnected pleasure in an orgasm for an orgasm's sake. In my discussion with my wife about how my viewing of pornography made her angry to the point of not wanting to have sex with me, I had once asked, "Doesn't the fact that you get to have an orgasm help you overlook all of that hurt? I mean it's an orgasm. Who wouldn't want to have one given the opportunity?" No, was her answer. And you say of course that was her answer, that was a stupid question. Women are looking for more out of sex than an orgasm. They want connection, acceptance - and a heart-knowledge security that they are the only one that their man needs or wants.
Men have to be taught this because it doesn't come by instinct. Our culture says the women and men are the same. And there aren't great examples of how to be a loving husband if, like me, you were raised in a home that disrespected women as needy, whiny and dumb.
If they can learn it and, praise God, I think I'm starting to get it. I am starting to view sex as a jointly owned by me and my wife and not a solo endeavor. In that, there's is a new level of intimacy and connection found that makes it emotionally satisfying as well as physically pleasurable.
So to your, "Is there any hope for us?" question. The depths to which I've been and still found hope for me and my wife, would not rule out all hope. My battle has been a 20-year battle going back to my teens. I've only been married for eight of those years. My children are still young and I know that I will be more a dad to them because I'm dealing with this in my life now. And better than my dad, who dealt with a lot of the same things, was to me.
Nothing is impossible, but you cannot change your boyfriend yourself. He must change himself. And you cannot allow yourself to enable his behaviors. I'm going to quote myself from a different thread:
"I hesistate to tell you what helped me because you might find more hope in your relationship than there really is. My wife gave me an ultimatum. She had had enough and was ready to leave. She was serious and was no longer buying my sincere-for-the-moment apologies. She wanted something to change. And because she held fast to that and really really was ready to leave. I started making some changes in my life. At first for her, and then for me.
But like all the support groups say, you can only work on you. My wife wasn't trying to fix me. She reached the point that she could no longer stand to be treated the way I was treating her - and was prepared to do something about it. She wasn't confronting me from the position of weakness that says, "You need change so that I'll feel loved and better about myself". She was saying, "I am strong and deserve better than this with or without you."
Last edited on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 04:01 am by alpha
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TimM
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 11:48 am |
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Jodie,
On why get married, gaylon speaks my mind pretty well. For me, the details were different, but I had the same experience of dissociation, of walls separating me from my wife but also from me and myself, of being 2 people. I'm tired and busy right now and I don't feel I can tell my own version of that experience coherently right now, but I'll try to get back here later.
Patrick Carnes' "Out of the Shadows" does a pretty good job of describing the addictive psychological system, and might be worthwhile reading.
Tim M.
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Brian Angels
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Posted: Sat Apr 21st, 2007 07:27 pm |
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Jodie77 wrote: So would you suggest to NOT get married until it is completely resolved? What scares me is that I hear of all thse "30 year battles" and that is disheartening because I couldn't live in that pain for all those years. Do you think more men than not look at porn statistically speaking? Shouldn't I try to find someone who doesn't have this problem? Because I can honestly say our intimacy is so tainted....and he doesn't even realize it.
Jodie77:
If I may, I'd like to add my opinion to this topic as well. I'm in recovery for porn addiction and can now say I feel like a new man. I can see clearly now how betraying my wife with pornography made her feel and I repent every day and also everytime I think about it. I was selfish and didn't take her feelings into consideration. Although I was aware of how she felt, the addiction and bondage of sin just drew me back to porn, hoping she wouldn't find out -- but she always did.
When my wife first approached me, I felt embarassed and insulted. Probably like every guy on here, I thought that looking at porn and masturbating was a healthy, normal activity for a man to do. Reading your post actually mirrors my situation and the way I was, in regards to your fiance's pon habit, denial, and excuses.
Luckily, I was forced to deal with my problem early in my marriage rather than 20 years down the road. Thanks to God, I am now 6 weeks porn-free and can say I will never go back to it because I have too much to lose and nothing to gain. I am still separated from my wife since Feb. 1st (I was married in September) but we are on the road to reconciliation and my restoration of faith and belief. I felt this was a test of my faith.
Please remember, watching porn weekly is still holding on to his addiction and is robbing you of full devotion. Have him read "Every Man's Battle" and reflect on what it means to rob you of full devotion and being cherished. It sickens me to this day but there were times when I would rather watch porn then have sex with my wife. And my wife is absolutely gorgeous and has a body to worship. I was robbing her of the full love she deserved. That made her feel insecure, inadequate, and her self-esteem disappeared. It is normal for a woman to feel that but it's not the woman's fault. She feels that our relationship was a lie but I begged to differ every time we bring it up. I truly loved her during dating and our engagement. But I wasn't loving her fully because I was using pornography as well.
My addiction stems back from 7th grade, when I was introduced to masturbation and pornography. From 15 to 28 years old, I had sex with 18 girls, I only loved four of them. I'm not a bad person at all. I'm fun, goodlooking, have a bright future ahead of me, I get along with mostly everyone -- but there was that dark side I had -- like you fniace. Almost everyone has that secret side that they must deal with. Luckily, I'm dealing with mine now.
Should you get married? Not yet. Sad to say but the only way to get through a sex addict is to make them lose something (you in this matter) and have him do some deep soul searching. If you search my posts, you'll see a very long one (my story) and about what it took for me to change. I am a firm believer that an addict must "crash & burn" because then will they truly see their problems dead smack in their face.
Good luck and praying for you sister.
____________________
Brian
The key to a successful marriage is not finding the right person, it's learning to love the person you found. - Mort Fertel
2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!&q
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Unearthed
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Posted: Sat Apr 21st, 2007 09:46 pm |
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Please...I have only been married 11 months and have been feeling the whole impact of my husband's fantacy life since I met him (though I just found proof about it a few weeks ago). What does marriage look like for the woman who is married to a person who toys and dabbles with this disconnect? How do we divide or compartmentalize the "love" they have for us vs. the love they have for this? Will someone please take the time to let us wives know what marriage is likely to look like and what they should do meanwhile?
My husband likes to have oral release at work (we own a business together) and our evenings are spent playing games and being fun companions. But the kicker is that when he does have sex with me it is just mostly for me and he is not really interested in having an orgasim for himself (I already gave at the office). I tell him that I am not a car needing a lube job and he gets his ego wrapped up into delivering great lube jobs if you know what I mean. So he says "sex is sex, and love is love" "Im having sex with you right now and giving you multiple orgasims because I love you". Also, he wakes up with erections in the morning, shows it to me...all the while knowing I am too busy getting the kids to school to indulge and too ashamed of my body to have sex in the light of daytime anyway. Why does he do that, and then say that I missed my chance?
(Incidently, he does not masterbate to porn, but stores the images up into his mind for when the mood for having an orgasim strikes, thereby claiming it is not adultry). Sounds rather patrinizing to me but I don't know how to deal with such things. I am a woman in my early fifties and do love being with him otherwise.
Pease let my know what the heck is going on?
In HIM
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