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TimM
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 06:41 pm |
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Ed,
Thanks for receiving a hard message with humility and grace.
When people feel like they have found a way that is unexpectedly saving their life, it's hard not to alienate others who haven't had that experience. I struggle with that a lot - with holding my tongue and listening instead of saying, "Why can't you just see that . . .". I want to tell people what they have to do, whether or not they are yet ready to listen.
One thing I think I am learning in the 12-step program, in which there is a profound reluctance to give advice, is how to share my truth without stepping over that line. As soon as I say "you" and "should" and "must" and "cannot", I've cut myself off from reality, and from you. I'm telling you about you, when I don't know about you. I'm telling you what has to happen for everyone, when all I know is what did happen to me. When I say "I" and "we" and "did", those issues go away. Others might listen to me, since I am the expert on me. It's hard to take offense if I only share from my experience about what actually happened. People may listen more attentively if I say, "I prayed to Christ and worked the steps and now the urge to act out has been lifted from me," than if I say, "What saved me was turning my will and my life over to Bill Gates and to Kim Jong Il." But if we share our truth honestly and limit ourselves to our experience, I think people automatically listen respectfully and ask themselves whether the same approach might work for them.
"When I was in that situation, here is what I did, and here is what happened to me," is a radically different message from, "What you all need to do is this."
Similarly, "Here is how things have worked so far," which may well be true, is a very different message from, "Here is how things are certain to work from now on," which cannot be. I have admired your care in distinguishing between these messages.
In one of the Narnia books, Aslan says to someone who asks about another person's fate, "We are talking about you, child. No one is told another person's story," or words to that effect. For me, helping others in recovery is about sharing my own story while admitting that what may work for another person and how God may act in their life is a mystery far beyond anything I can know. I think that if we can keep clear about that, if we can share from our own experience in humility, knowing that our experience may not be another's experience and that God may work in another person in very different ways than He works in us, then we can open doors of communication and healing with others. I also know that for me, it is a continual effort to tell my story and not another person's, to take my inventory and not theirs.
It's hard for me as a teacher to stay in that place, and it has to be even harder for a pastor to do that. I wonder if there are support meetings, either on-line or, even better, face-to-face, where you could see that sort of communication modeled, and if listening and then, gradually, participating in such meetings might help you, as they have helped me, learn to share and to support without lecturing or preaching? For me, that's a tiny part of how I benefit from attending SAA and SLAA, but it is a real benefit to me, as much as I still have to learn.
In any case, thanks again for your honest and gentle reply.
Tim M.
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mj9
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Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 08:04 pm |
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Accidentally posted this on the wrong thread, so it may be a re-read for some....
Ed, I often read posts but don't feel I have anything to add.
I just want to point out that there is another Scripture which says that God will give them over to a depraved mind, because of their prolonged, unrepentant sin. That may be where we are at right now. Others may disagree, but being "given over" - sounds strikingly like the definition of addiction to me.
One person on the list recounted his deliverance from this years ago, in which he was totally free of it for some time and then fell back into sin after several years. As a result, he now struggles constantly, which reminded me of that Scripture - God giving them over to a depraved mind. Also in Romans, receiving the due penalty may have something to do with it. Anyway, which of us has not remained in a prolonged, sinful state regardless of the Holy Spirit's conviction, grieving Him as a result?
So, if addiction IS "being given over," then we MUST battle this however long it takes - as a consequence of our prolonged unwillingness to obey, by remaining daily utterly reliant upon our Savior. Doesn't sound like it's God's fault to me; sounds like we got what we asked for, and the Shepherd has broken our legs to keep us close by. Why do we think He will suddenly release us from this bondage when we willingly provided Satan with the foothold, the weaponry, and the keys to the castle, then made up the guest room for him?
Should God simply rescue us, I'm relatively certain that most all of us would miss the value of that precious deliverance and walk right back into the hands of the enemy, expecting the Lord to just rescue us again. On the other hand, we seem to value what we must work and fight for (yes, by remaining weak and completely dependant on Him), while God works in us throughout the battle to accomplish His good will for our good and His glory.
This is our battle, because we made it our battle. (Perhaps these are our amalakites, ammorites or philistines that we left alive instead of anhialating them...) and I believe we MUST participate in any war we help create! Don't you think He had better plans for each of us? But the abundant life we are promised comes with responsibilities on our part to fear and obey Him. We willingly traded in God's best for our lives for something that brings death! Now we want to know where the magic key is? The magic key is where it's always been - in utter submission to Him to do all that is necessary (die completely to self and live only unto Him) because we choose to love and obey Him with all we are and all we have (heart, soul, mind & strength) and leave the rest of it to Him.
-mj9
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Ed Neal
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Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 09:45 pm |
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mj9 wrote: I just want to point out that there is another Scripture which says that God will give them over to a depraved mind, because of their prolonged, unrepentant sin. That may be where we are at right now. Others may disagree, but being "given over" - sounds strikingly like the definition of addiction to me.
That does sound like the definition of "addiction," but I think it's a misapplication of the scripture passage.
It comes from Romans 1:18-25 (NIV)18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Some observations here... Paul is NOT talking about believers, he is talking about atheists and/or idolaters. The description is of someone who has willfully rejected everything in creation that point to who God is, but rather than giving Him glory or being thankful, they suppressed the truth and believed a Lie. v24 then tells us that since they have already rejected all of God's revelation, and even God Himself, that then He "gave them over."
There are a boatload of pornography addicts who genuinely love God and want to serve and worship Him as the Lord and Creator of all. Yes, they have been persistently submitting to the sin, but they've also been repeatedly repentant.
That is NOT the picture that Paul paints in this passage. I would suggest that applying it to ourselves or a Brother/Sister in Christ could be quite demoralizing, and create a false understanding of God's perspective on them and their sin!
God is full of GRACE towards His children, NOT judgment and wrath!
So, if addiction IS "being given over," then we MUST battle this however long it takes - as a consequence of our prolonged unwillingness to obey, by remaining daily utterly reliant upon our Savior. Doesn't sound like it's God's fault to me; sounds like we got what we asked for, and the Shepherd has broken our legs to keep us close by. Why do we think He will suddenly release us from this bondage when we willingly provided Satan with the foothold, the weaponry, and the keys to the castle, then made up the guest room for him?
I would suggest a very different application of this passage to addictions... Notice the emphasis on "truth" in this section of Scripture. First it says they suppressed the truth. Then it says their thinking became futile. finally, we are told that they exchanged the truth of God for the lie.
If we have indeed somehow, even unwittingly, suppressed the truth, been futile (inaccurate) in our thinking, and believed lies about ourselves rather than the truth, it certainly stands to reason that we would experience symptoms that resemble those spoken of in this passage.
But that means the our quest is not to accept the addiction as God's judgment and face the battle for the rest of our lives (because we brought it on ourselves), but rather to root out the lies that we have unwittingly believed... lies that keep us needlessly bound to a judgment that God has no intention of us being under!
Should God simply rescue us, I'm relatively certain that most all of us would miss the value of that precious deliverance and walk right back into the hands of the enemy, expecting the Lord to just rescue us again. On the other hand, we seem to value what we must work and fight for (yes, by remaining weak and completely dependant on Him), while God works in us throughout the battle to accomplish His good will for our good and His glory.
...
This is our battle, because we made it our battle.
But God HAS rescued us. How can we say that He has... but He hasn't?
Our task is not to simply continue to fight this battle "of our own making" but rather to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. (Romans 12:2) Our minds are where we think and believe and make decisions. If we will renew how we think, adjust what we believe to match the truth, then act in accordance with that truth, we will be transformed. He has already "given us everything we need for life and godliness." (2 Peter 1:3). That includes His truth!
Now we want to know where the magic key is? The magic key is where it's always been - in utter submission to Him to do all that is necessary (die completely to self and live only unto Him) because we choose to love and obey Him with all we are and all we have (heart, soul, mind & strength) and leave the rest of it to Him.
Without discounting the importance of daily submission to the Lord, I submit that the real "magic key" (if you want to put it that way) is found in John 8:32 -- "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
If we are not free, it is a truth issue, NOT a "judgment of God" issue.
If we are even unwittingly believing and acting on lies as if they were true, we will continue in bondage, no matter how submissive we are in our hearts to the Lord. We may even manage, by that power of the Lord in our hearts, to stay clear of the actual sin for a time... even a long time. But, like the second man in my story (The Chain -- an allegory ) we are not truly free until the chain is laying on the ground behind us and we can simply walk away from it all together.
Pastor Ed
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mj9
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 04:14 am |
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Ed,
You said:
Guys, I want to know if there's anything that will take the legs right out from under this personal adversary we call pornography and put it out for the count. I want to go on with my life without even thinking about it anymore. I want to be able to stare it down so that immediately goes scurrying under the nearest table every time it dares to look me in the face attempting to seduce me again.
Is anything less than that really freedom from it?
Forgive me if I misunderstood your post. Perhaps what I "heard" and what you meant are worlds apart. It seemed to me that you were bewildered by the struggle many of us have with this addiction, and that you seem to believe that there is a "key" which could set us free - almost instantaneously, and that anything less is failure or at least discouraging to other sa's.
First, I certainly hope you're right about God's never-ending grace. But... although yes, He is love, grace, and mercy, and He is also holy, just and righteous, and He punishes sin. I do know from Scripture that sin comes with grave consequences and that His justice begins with the family of believers. There are numerous Scriptures that support this, and support that He will even turn His children over to satan (via some enemy) for punishment. We can't operate on only half of His character. It simply isn't safe to do so.
I did read your "chains" story, and it seems we may be closer in our thinking on the "battle" than it may appear. You know, the scenario (pit, slippery slope and chains) you described is so like what we've all been through. But the "battle" I'm talking about personally IS the battle toward recovery. I don't mean to define the battle as simply resisting lust or denying our sexuality as the keys to freedom, even though at times it seems that asexuality is the only answer. That hasn't seemed to have gotten any of us anywhere for longer than a few fleeting days or weeks.
But what I AM talking about is the recovery battle, which all of us should be engaged in (I am personally in a 12 step group and counseling, MUCH work to get to the truth and transformation of the mind). I believe this is a huge part of the total submission and reliance on the Lord. This submission is not self-propelled or self-willed, but neither is it namby-pamby and without effort and cost on our parts. He will NOT do the work He requires of us -- for us. But He WILL give the increase on our efforts, and direct our path when we walk by faith! (faith w/out works...)
The deliverance I was referring to - that you seemed to be asking about in your previous post sounded like the silver bullet we all want - with little to no effort/time investment on our part but to ask for it. That is what I think many of us originally hope for - the deliverance (10 seconds or less  ) that many of us would like God to just lay at our feet. We've all heard of it, some do experience it, but as I said in my last post, I believe our nature seems to be to squander that kind of deliverance because we think it will come again. Maybe that's just me...
I believe THAT is precisely why God allows this process to be so long and so drawn out, and yes, so difficult. Now, as for the verse "The truth will set them free, and those Christ has set free are free indeed" - there seems to be alot of time and effort between the captives being set free, and them actually experiencing and living in that freedom. In between is that transformation of the mind (from the teachings passed down from our fathers into the TRUTH) and the putting into action (work our your own salvation...) that God reveals to/in us - and that takes a tremendous amount of time and effort from us. I dug my own pit, and made it as deep as I liked. I didn't get this way overnight or from one instance of sin. Therefore, my climb out takes much time, effort, and heartache in the process. I define that as my battle. Just semantics? I don't know.
I do want to thank you for your posts. They are extremely thought provoking.
God bless, -mj9
Last edited on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 04:29 pm by mj9
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a4givn1
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Posted: Tue Dec 26th, 2006 02:00 am |
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Very thought provocing discussion... I enjoy reading some of the posts. I really enjoy reading Ed's mostly because I see the love and compassion which is of course our trade mark..
I wanted to comment some on the frustation and destination is it possible to "arrive"
I have had short bursts of time where I have no need to or desire to "Act out" and truthfully the only real reason I am in recovery as a single man is because of the Holy Spirit.... I know a BUNCH of men that do not see sexual sin as a problem. That is what I call being given over to...
I attend groups and I have been in counseling for 3 years and I am free when I feel loved.. Really Loved not what is usually given ... Some information ....  I refrence the story of an insane assylum patient that was healed with 6 months of consistant love reading the bible no matter what every day at lunch this nurse would go and read out of obediance to christ ... And eventually , slowly things got better.
Mike G the founder of this site has a clear understanding of this.
When we receive the Grace and Love of God.. We naturally do what God would do in that situation. Trouble is we always will have trouble. Thank The Lord For Continuing growth and sobreity..
John K.
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