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Ed Neal
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Posted: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006 11:21 pm |
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Hello.
Everyone on this forum knows how transient our victory over porn and lust can be. We can be flying high and knowing victory for a time, but the allure remains and often we will fall back into the same patterns and habits.
We all have tried several different strategies for purity and victory. Most (if not all) of those strategies have either not worked, or they have not been such that we have consistently embraced the strategy so that it really had the opportunity to keep us pure in the long term.
For me, personally, 30 years of will power, scripture memory, target praying, spiritual warfare praying, accountability all have failed to give me lasting victory.
Whenever I had times of "freedom" (from looking/acting), the allure and the pull towards illicit materials remained. And so, as I'm sure you can relate, it was just a matter of time before I was back in the filth.
I have begun to wonder if any of these approaches really CAN deliver us! They're all good, mind you, but I'm not just interested in "good things to do," I'm interested in deliverance even from the temptation! I want to be at the point where the allure is gone and the desire to return doesn't even dwell in my heart.
I want to be able to sit at my computer for hours, with no one around (even with no filter on my system!), and not even have the thought of looking up a porn site!
So, for you who have attained that freedom, please tell me how! What have you done and why has it worked?
If you have NOT attained that kind of freedom, please tell me which strategy you have found most effective.
If you find any kind of consistent victory has eluded you, please share some of your thoughts on the strategies that we have all been encouraged to pursue.
Do you believe that such freedom is even possible? Or is it only for the few? For every one man or woman who declares lasting victory, there have to thousands who continue to wallow in the cycle of falling, repentance, forgiveness, and beginning again only to fall again.
What is our best hope? How much hope does it really offer us?
Thanks. I look forward to your replies!
Pastor Ed.
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Ed Neal
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Posted: Sun Dec 3rd, 2006 04:40 am |
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P.S. I hope that my post above is not too disheartening...
I really DO believe that there is hope for a complete and lasting freedom from even the temptation.
However, these hard questions need to be asked and adequately answered before we can know or discover where the path to freedom genuinely lies!
Pastor Ed.
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mike
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Posted: Mon Dec 4th, 2006 09:52 pm |
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>For me, personally, 30 years of will power, scripture memory, target praying, spiritual warfare praying, accountability all have failed to give me lasting victory.
Whenever I had times of "freedom" (from looking/acting), the allure and the pull towards illicit materials remained. And so, as I'm sure you can relate, it was just a matter of time before I was back in the filth.
>I have begun to wonder if any of these approaches really CAN deliver us!
No, they cannot.
> I'm interested in deliverance even from the temptation! I want to be at the point where the allure is gone and the desire to return doesn't even dwell in my heart. I want to be able to sit at my computer for hours, with no one around (even with no filter on my system!), and not even have the thought of looking up a porn site!
If you mean that you want to never have to deal with a wandering thought again, or be tempted, this will never happen in this life. We are stuck with this broken flesh until death frees us from it, and Satan isn't going away until Jesus returns.
> Do you believe that such freedom is even possible?
If you mean, can God give us the power to live free from sexual sin, yes. He doesn't command us to do that which He doesn't offer the power to overcome.
> Or is it only for the few?
There is no biblical precedence for a "chosen few" who Jesus gives the power to overcome sin.
> What is our best hope?
1. There is no silver bullet spiritual thing to do or a program that will set men or women free from sin.
2. The key begins with brokenness. That which is inside of all of us is desperately wicked and ugly. I struggle with pride and self-centeredness just like everyone else. A man or woman who has faced their utter depravity and banruptcy has no hope that there's anything they can do to "fix" themselves.
3. A broken person comes to Christ as a child, and is willing to completely and unconditionally surrender their life to them. "God, I can't fix myself by anything I can do, so you must do it." There is no more faking it, or trying to pretend that doing good works can fix their situation. This is the moment where religion dies and true faith begins, where theology in the head begins the transformation into reality and life in the heart.
4. "Fleeing from sexual immorality" means we've made the choice to divorce lust for all time and to make the Lord the only God of our life. There is no more compromise. In truth, many men ride the fence for awhile because they haven't made this choice. I road the fence for the first 36 years of my life, so I know, and I see it all the time in the lives of others. Divorcing lust means going to support groups, etc.
5. Our deepest core need is for God, not freedom from sin, ministry, knowledge or people. He promies that when we seek Him with ALL of our heart that we will find Him.
6. Most men and women struggle with lies about themselves and the Lord that are a barrier between them and God. This is where God can use books, counselors, time in the Word, etc.
7. A diligent search of the Scriptures reveals that the Lord never worked with anyone in the same place, time or circumstances. "Come to me and find life" (John 5:39-40) is the closest thing to a "program" He gave us.
In short, He is the God who sets broken men and women free from sin. We are broken until death, which means we need to stay close to Him for His strength, life and love every day for the rest of our life. Many men get a few days or months of temporary relief from sexual sin and then start buying into the delusion that "I've got this under control." David's fall with Bathsheba and Peter's denial with Christ are a perfect example of this. God had even written Scripture through David prior to his adultery with Bathsheba.
The question is, Do you know about Him, or do you know Him? Are you able to bask in the love of God... or... is it hard to receive?
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henny
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Posted: Tue Dec 5th, 2006 03:33 pm |
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Mike,
I agree totally with what you've said here. As a struggling pornography addict I can attest to the power of God to set a man free from sexual sin. I struggled with my porn addiction for all of my adult life.
I became a Christian in 1975, but the porn addiction never left. In 1994 after a lengthy session in a book store arcade I went back to my hotel room feeling dirtier than I'd ever felt. My self-loathing knew no bounds. I was staying in a cheap trucker's motel and literally fell on my face before God. I lay there with my face in that stinking carpet and cried out to the Lord. All of my pride, all of my self confidence was gone. I admitted to the Lord that if He didn't remove this sin from my heart, it would never leave. I'm not sure how long I lay there before the Lord, but after some time I got up....cleansed. Pornography had lost it's pull.
For 5 years I never once felt the urge to go to the old book stores and places I knew sold pornographic magazines, had movie booths, live women in glass cages, none of it. I lived a normal life. Then, one day I heard about porn on the internet. I took one look. Just one look. It's almost 7 years now that I have struggled. I know God can set me free. And I know God will set me free. I also know it won't be like last time. I squandered that gift, and now must work my way through this horror.
Thanks for your wisdom and insight and honesty. God bless you in all you do.
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TimM
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 05:01 am |
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I'm sorry for a very quick answer, but it's a busy time for me and I'm tired; still, I feel like I ought to say something.
I absolutely believe that it is possible in our recovery to reach a point where we are happy, joyous and free. I know people with years or decades of sexual sobriety, people living lives of honesty and service and serenity they never imagined could be theirs. I'm not yet one of those people - I have been in recovery less than 2 years, and I've currently been sober just over a year - but the past 2 years, despite a whole sequence of personal stresses (serious psychological issues for one of my kids, major illness for my mother and mother-in-law, 3 hospitalizations of my own, and the list goes on) have been the best and most blessed period of my life, without exception.
I didn't get to this place by being strong, or by prayer, or by confession in church. Maybe those things could have worked, I don't know, but for me, they didn't. Struggling and praying, I could hold out for a day or a week or a month or even 3 months; but always I would eventually fall back into the same pit.
I think I got to the new place where I am today by being weak, and by having hope. Both those things came to me through the 12 step program, and they have led me to a much richer life, and to at least the beginnings of a real faith. I respect that this wasn't the experience of the founders of this forum. I can't rule out that I will spnd a few more years in the program and then relapse hideously. Today, though, I am living in peace, a peace I never had before in my life.
It's not easy to explain exactly what changed for me in the spring of 2005, but here's a try. I finally gave up and stopped trying to be strong. I finally accepted that what had been my strategy for 30 years had failed and that I had no idea how to get out of the mess I was in. I finally was really forced to an absolute conviction that I could no longer pretend to have any way to escape from a future of growingly hopeless isolation from other people, from my family, from God and from myself. I finally dared to see my future: I would die in the hopeless despair in which I was living.
Finally at that point, I was really ready to do anything, to offer anything, in order to recover.
And at that time, I came back to the 12 steps and looked at what they offered and promised. Ordinary people like me, not the saints of the desert, were finding freedom and experiencing God acting daily in their lives. What the steps talked about was a new relationship with God - something that replaced a faith I thought had been real, but that had really been only intellectual conviction - a healing of separation from other people, a restoration to wholeness of my own soul. These were things I had longed for for decades. The program told me I could have these things if I were willing to trust, to do simple things with absolute commitment. And it told me that as a result of doing these things, I could be given a gift of freedom from the addiction that was destroying my soul. All this was the greatest hope I could imagine one human being offering another.
For my recovery, I needed both those things - total despair that made me willing to do absolutely anything and not to hold back in any way, and a hope that if I really surrendered to God and submitted to other people, then I might recover.
In our addiction, we build up barriers that divide us from God, from other people, and from ourselves. The program asks us to do some very scary work - turning our will and our lives over to God's care, confessing our failings to others and making amends for what we have done wrong, looking at ourselves and our lives honstly but compassionately. Those scary things act to breach the three sets of walls that enable or addiction, and they begin to enable our freedom.
I don't say that only through the program can one address all these issues and failings. Perhaps there are other ways to see ourselves as we are, to live honestly with other people, and to really surrender to God. I do think, though, that we need to do all those three things in order to recover, and that for me, the 12 step program was the beginning of my path.
There's a lot more I could say about the details of my story, about the nature of my spiritual experiences in the program, about the important role in my own individual history that was played by finding that as I result of my recovery I could find peace and faith and serenity in the face of sudden life-threatening illness. Many things have strengthened and deepened my recovery and have ripped me out of periods of drifting and of stagnation and of impending relapse. It has been a fascinating adventure. This is enough, though, to give the outline of the beginning of my path.
At this point, I can truly say that my addiction has been a blessing. It has brought me the beginnings of a faith I never had before. It has forced me to share things with my wife and with other people that I would never have shared had I not been desperate. It has compelled me to start to overcome my fear and dread of what I would find if I dared to look inside myself. All these things have enriched my life beyond measure.
A better person than I would have found these blessings without needing to spend 40 years in addictive hell first. For whatever reason, I couldn't do that. 40 years in hell was not the blessing I wanted, but it was the blessing I needed, and it was the blessing I received.
So that has been my path. I don't know where it will lead - what God will do with me tomorrow. I can't promise to maintain the sobriety and serenity I have today. That's not in my power; it's up to God. I'm not willing to promise what I know I can't deliver - never to fail again, never to turn my back on the hope that sustains me today. I'm not that strong, and my efforts to pretend I have strength have bought me 40 years of hell. But for today, I am weak enough to trust God, to trust my friends, to trust my sponsor and my therapist, and to stand in awe amid blessings I never believed were even possible.
Just my experience, no doubt most incompletely understood and most imperfectly described.
Tim M.
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henny
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 04:09 pm |
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Tim,
Thank you so much for telling us your story. It is a true faith builder. I have struggled with St. Paul's words, "when I am weak, then I am strong." I went to a Christian therapist for some time and I recall telling him, when I am weak, I am just weak. I couldn't find any strength. I wasn't feeling God's power. And I believe the reason was I hated weakness. Hated the thought of weakness, even the idea, the concept of weakness. I liked, no loved, strength, power, ability, that "can do" attitude.
My father was a Marine, and a drunk for most of his life. One day he decided to quit drinking. And he did. No programs, no help...he just quit. And he put out this vibe that weakness was detestable, something a man just didn't accept. A man took the freaking bull by the horns and slammed it to the ground. You got a problem, you freaking deal with it. No namby pamby b.s. Get on with it. You can see how that attitude, that thinking, affected his son's.
I have two brothers and we are all driven. My older brother is an ex-air force bomber pilot, currently flying jumbo aircraft for American Airlines. Both my younger brother and I own our own businesses and are genuinely successful. But we both struggle with pornography addiction. Not sure about my older brother, but I know he has his own sexual difficulties.
Strength. Power. Ability. Just do it. Get over it. Move on. All of those things were hammered into my head. And then there was porn. Couldn't do it. Couldn't get over it. Couldn't move on. Couldn't counquer it.
And admitting my weakness, truly admitting that I cannot handle this thing on my own, is proving to be the hardest thing I've ever faced. I did once before, fell down before God and asked for His help. But now it's different.
I need other men to succeed. I can't do it on my own. Can't just be me and God. I have to reach out and cry for help. It's killing me. Both the pornography and the need to ask for help. And I believe I'm going to die either way. Either the porn is going to slowly kill my soul and the man I am supposed to be. Or the need to cry out for help is going to force me to die to myself and my pride filled, self-sufficiency. I only hope I can choose the latter.
Again, thanks for telling us your story. I was truly blessed. And may God bless you as you continue on His path.
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Ed Neal
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 05:25 pm |
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Guys,
Thanks so much for sharing your stories. They are truly from your hearts and your longing to live lives purely for our Father is very evident.
But can I be brutally honest?
I can easily imagine people coming on this site and reading our posts, and you know what? I don't really think they'll be very encouraged.
Here's what I think they would hear loud and clear:
1. No matter how good I get at beating this thing, it will be a constant and difficult struggle the rest of my life.
2. In order to have any measure of continued success, it seems like I have to have some sort of direct line to God. Until I start firguring that out, I am not going to have to power to be able to get free of this.
The most encouraging thing I sense is, "I'm not the only one finding this struggle unbeatable."
Guys, I want to know if there's anything that will take the legs right out from under this personal adversary we call pornography and put it out for the count. I want to go on with my life without even thinking about it anymore. I want to be able to stare it down so that immediately goes scurrying under the nearest table every time it dares to look me in the face attempting to seduce me again.
Is anything less than that really freedom from it?
"If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:36 NIV - emphasis mine)
Pastor Ed
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TimM
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 10:22 pm |
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Ed,
You talk about how someone might react coming upon this thread. It's hard to think about that, because presumably their reaction would be based on a response to several posters whose opinions do not entirely agree. I can't represent others' views, but here is how I would react to someone analyzing my own post in your words.
Your hypothetical reader concludes,
"1. No matter how good I get at beating this thing, it will be a constant and difficult struggle the rest of my life."
But I say, I'm not sure where you're getting that. This is certainly not my opinion, and you're not reading closely enough if you think that it is. Yes, I think we remain addicts, that we have built deep ruts of bad behavior into our minds, and that we can always stray back into those ruts and become stuck again. But I also believe, both from my own experience and from that of the recovering addicts who have gone before me, the promises of he AA Big Book: That God can take away our desire to act out. That we can become happy, joyous and free. That we can reach a point where we recoil from our addiction as from a hot flame, easily saying no to temptations when they occur to us. I think we can build new lives, and that we live in the midst of recovering addicts who are doing that every day. It's hard work learning a new way to live, changing everything I was for 4 decades, but I live surrounded and supported by people who are doing just that.
Your hypothetical reader also opines,
"2. In order to have any measure of continued success, it seems like I have to have some sort of direct line to God. Until I start firguring that out, I am not going to have to power to be able to get free of this."
And I say, Bingo. Absolutely right. I don't have the power to get free. But what I can't do, we - I and God and other people - can do. Until I figure that out, I get nowhere. At least, that was my experience for 30 years of trying to quit. Once I do figure that out though, in a real and deep way, then there is hope.
After all, both the 12 step program and the Christian faith say that direct lines to God are possible. I used to say those words but not believe that they applied to me. At every liturgy, I used to listen to the prayer, "Let us commend ourselves, one another, and our whole life to Christ our God." I would sing, "To Thee, O Lord," but I would think, "Not my whole life. I'm still holding back some part of it. I can't really trust God completely. I need to be safe. If I trusted God absolutely, who would keep me safe if what I think about God turned out to be wrong?" And so I stayed without power and without hope, and I stayed that way for 30 years as a model Christian externally. I stayed that way until I figured out that without a direct line to God, I was dead; and so I had better start acting as if a direct line to God was possible, because I didn't have anything left to lose. Once I figured that out and really became willing to do whatever it took to recover and really became willing to give up everything in the effort, then my world and my soul began to change.
You write,
"The most encouraging thing I sense is, 'I'm not the only one finding this struggle unbeatable.'"
That is encouraging. Once we finally accept that we ourselves are absolutely defeated, then we may become ready to see that there is a hope for victory outside ourselves, and stronger than ourselves.
You also write something that I have often thought,
"Guys, I want to know if there's anything that will take the legs right out from under this personal adversary we call pornography and put it out for the count. I want to go on with my life without even thinking about it anymore. I want to be able to stare it down so that immediately goes scurrying under the nearest table every time it dares to look me in the face attempting to seduce me again."
I wanted that, too. I wanted to be able to kill a part of myself and to go on with life without that part of myself, which I called life as normal. But that life without a part of myself that is real even if I try to deny and suppress it isn't normal. It's profoundly abnormal. Part of my recovery has to be discovering what real needs I am trying to meet by acting out in my addiction, and finding ways to meet those needs that are healthy and moral and loving. That's hard and scary work, and it takes a long time, maybe all our lives. But that's where the path to normal lies.
I wanted to beat my addiction and then forget about it and never look back. But what does it take to find recovery from my addiction? It takes turning my life over to God every day. It takes meditation to discern God's will, and prayer for the power to carry it out. It takes honesty and humility in the presence of other people. It takes learning how to share and to trust others and to have friends. It takes self-examination that allows me to see when I have been wrong and harmed others, and how to right those wrongs. It takes honesty with myself that lets me learn what I am feeling, who I am, why I am acting as I do, and how to act better. It takes learning to live in balance and serenity. All this is what addiction recovery is.
So now look at my desire to recover once and for all and be done with it. What part of the paragraph above do you want me to achieve and then move on. Prayer? Friendship? Honesty? Humility? Introspection?
I didn't think so.
When I say now that recovery is a lifetime endeavor, what I mean is that I can't go back to living the way that seemed natural to me much of my life. I have to work hard doing new things. I have to pray. I have to build and maintain relationships with God and with other people. I have to work to forgive myself and to understand myself. I have to do all these things that are unnatural to me or else I will drop right back into my addiction. But you know what? All those hard things I have to do are blessings.
Lots of people who are better or smarter or luckier or something than I am are able to find all those blessings without the need of being forced into them by decades of pain. I turn out not to be one of those people. I needed the decades of pain. And yeah, I guess I and we do face a continuing struggle all our lives. It's the struggle to keep being honest, the struggle to stay connected with the people around us, the struggle to say yes to God.
Thank God for that struggle, in which lie freedom and blessing.
I'm sorry, Ed, if your hypothetical reader finds that message discouraging. I don't mean it to be. I really thought it was a message of hope.
Tim M.
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henny
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 11:06 pm |
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Ed,
I don't think we want to get into a long, drawn out discussion about this, but there are a few things I think need saying. Following Tim's line of thinking, I'll address your imaginary reader.
Your first comment is that a visitor may not be encouraged. The purpose of this forum, and any group dealing with addiction is not solely to be a pep rally. I believe the primary purpose of this forum and any addiction support group is honesty. A place where we can all lay it on the line. No punches pulled. And that means looking at a few weeks or a few decades of addiction with total honesty.
This thing wouldn't have gone on so long for all of us if it was simply a matter of belief. I believe. So does Tim. So do you. We are, most of us, believers in Jesus Christ. Yet, we turn to pornography compulsively, uncontrollably. And the fight to overcome is a bloody, deadly, drawn out battle. You know that. You've lived it. So have we all.
You say you want to be brutally honest. Well, I think you may want to think about this: I hear in your writings, the words of a preacher. Someone saying the "right thing", even if it flies in the face of reality. Of course we want to be free. But acknowledging John 8:36 as an absolute truth has not freed me. Or you. I don't know why. Nor do you. It has something to do with continuing to embrace the lies of Satan. I think we all know that. But saying you want your victory over sex addiction to look like this or that doesn't make it reality. Your desire to have temptation run from you reminds me of the message of my Marine father. A real man, (in this case a real victor over sex addiction) scares the enemy.
Well, we're not told to scare sexual temptation, to make it scurry under a table. In every instance that I am aware of where scripture talks about this, the command is the same----flee! Run, run, run. Get the heck out of town, and don't even go near it. Why? Because it is a life-long battle.
We all know that pornography addicts, drug addicts, alcoholics, anorexics, gluttons, work-a-holics, and everyone who turns to something other than the living God for comfort are, in some way, embracing a lie. And the temptation to embrace that lie will probably go on for as long as we inhabit this earthly shell. But that doesn't mean it is any less of a victory, any less true freedom.
Your brother in Christ.
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Ed Neal
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 11:13 pm |
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TimM wrote: I'm sorry, Ed, if your hypothetical reader finds that message discouraging. I don't mean it to be. I really thought it was a message of hope.
I know, Tim. Perhaps I'm overreacting a little bit.
But here's part of what drives my thinking... This thread has been viewed some 111 times when I checked just a moment ago. I know that everytime I reload the page it clicks off another "view," but still, with only 8 replies now, that means there are a bunch of people reading these posts that are not saying anything about it.
BillYeah's post, "Found the answer (for me anyway)" post has had over 500 views with only 12 replies!
People are looking at these pages. And they're looking for hope!
While the things that have been written here are good regarding perseverance and drawing close to the Lord, I still think that for most people cruising this site looking for hope, their responses are going to look more like hopelessness that hope... even though, to the one committed to pursuing the Lord and purity they really do contain encouragement.
I know that is your desire. It is mine as well.
But I will tell you that as I look around on this site, the overall mood that I sense is despair and struggle, not hope and freedom!
Maybe those who genuinely find freedom leave all this behind and move on with their lives.
Where are the testimonies of those who have been so freed that they can tell all about it and give hope to others? Why is it that the primary notes of encouragement come in the form of "Well, guys, I'm really doing better now!"
It would seem to someone reading this that there is no permanent answer.
I genuinely am full of hope and I really believe there is an answer that would set people free from the allure of pornography so that they would be able to more freely pursue knowing and walking with the Lord daily. For some, I suppose, it is the desperation of being at the end of their rope that drives them to seek the Lord. But for many others, that desperation only fuels hopelessness. Being truly set free from the pull to pornography could and would inspire their pursuit of the Lord out of gratitude.
I guess what I'm saying is simply this. I read people's accounts of freedom, but it still doesn't sound very free. It sounds more like effective management of the temptation.
Thanks again for your thoughtful response!
Pastor Ed.
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Ed Neal
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 11:57 pm |
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henny wrote: This thing wouldn't have gone on so long for all of us if it was simply a matter of belief. I believe. So does Tim. So do you. We are, most of us, believers in Jesus Christ. Yet, we turn to pornography compulsively, uncontrollably. And the fight to overcome is a bloody, deadly, drawn out battle. You know that. You've lived it. So have we all.
Brother, I am not speaking of belief unto salvation.
My point is that there are lies that we still believe that empower our bondage. If we never address believing those specific truths that address and correct those lies, we will remain in bondage.
You say you want to be brutally honest. Well, I think you may want to think about this: I hear in your writings, the words of a preacher. Someone saying the "right thing", even if it flies in the face of reality. Of course we want to be free. But acknowledging John 8:36 as an absolute truth has not freed me. Or you. I don't know why. Nor do you. It has something to do with continuing to embrace the lies of Satan. I think we all know that. But saying you want your victory over sex addiction to look like this or that doesn't make it reality. Your desire to have temptation run from you reminds me of the message of my Marine father. A real man, (in this case a real victor over sex addiction) scares the enemy.
It does not fly in the face of reality, my brother. It flies in the face of our perception of reality, based not on Scripture, but on our experiences. There is no Biblical reason for us to believe that such a reality is not possible.
John 8:36 is not the truth that sets us free from such a sin bondage because it, by itself, does not correct the lie that empowers our bondage.
Saying you want victory doesn't make it a reality. Becoming a believer in Jesus doesn't make it a reality. Correcting the specific lies and living by the truth instead makes it a reality. That's a reality that I have experienced.
The problem is when the specific lies that empower the bondage are not addressed. I have not seen them addressed anywhere on this website! I've seen lots of lies addressed, but not the ones that keep us in bondage.
Well, we're not told to scare sexual temptation, to make it scurry under a table. In every instance that I am aware of where scripture talks about this, the command is the same----flee! Run, run, run. Get the heck out of town, and don't even go near it. Why? Because it is a life-long battle.
I just read Paul's words there in 2 Tim. 2:22 again... "Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart." (NIV)
Paul says "flee" but he doesn't make a really big issue out of it! It is a simple (almost passing) reminder about lust in the midst of a bunch of other instructions. He doesn't say that it's going to be a lifelong battle. In fact, it almost sounds like it is particularly an issue for youth (Timothy still was pretty young at the time). The context of the passage itself has much more to do with truth and opposing false teaching than about conquering lust!
I'm not saying that we shouldn't flee, I'm just saying that I feel we have emphasized that to the exclusion of truths that really would make a difference for our lives.
Are there other passages that tell us to flee? None are coming to my mind at the moment...
We all know that pornography addicts, drug addicts, alcoholics, anorexics, gluttons, work-a-holics, and everyone who turns to something other than the living God for comfort are, in some way, embracing a lie. And the temptation to embrace that lie will probably go on for as long as we inhabit this earthly shell. But that doesn't mean it is any less of a victory, any less true freedom.
I would disagree. If someone perpetually has a battle against a powerful temptation, they are not as free as the one who no longer experiences that temptation. That doesn't mean that there will be no temptations at all for that person, but that the allure of that particular temptation is broken.
Every addiction, I'm sure, has it's own peculiar lies. Even from person to person, the lies that bind one to the addiction may not be the same as it is for the next guy.
The lie that bound me to pornography and secrecy for so long may or may not be the same as your lie. But if we CAN each isolate our own lie, and believe the truth instead, then I believe that we can truly know a freedom that would startle us all!
Pastor Ed
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Praise6
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 12:44 am |
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I asked my husband about this last night.
He stopped and was recovering for 3 years before he accepted Christ.
He says the only way anyone will stop is when the option to act out is removed. I think that is the bottom line. The option to act out is removed and to stay that way one has to absolutely want to be free.
I understand this. I stopped drinking over 20 years ago. Period. The option to drink was removed for me and I was done. However to this day I have 30 year struggle with bulimia. Why? Because if I am brutally honest with myself and God, I am not ready to give up this crutch. Pathetic, yes. Truth, yes.
If you haven't stopped, you are not ready to stop. If you think that temptation will be completely removed, I don't know. I know my temptation for booze is gone. My husband says his temptation for porn is gone. Only his heart knows. I do know he hasn't slipped for over six years.
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Ed Neal
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 02:33 am |
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Praise6 wrote: I asked my husband about this last night.... He says the only way anyone will stop is when the option to act out is removed. I think that is the bottom line. The option to act out is removed and to stay that way one has to absolutely want to be free.
I have to disagree, Praise6.
By that measure policy, the only way an overeater will ever stop overeating is if the option to overeat is removed. Unfortunately, we all still need to eat.... so long as there is opportunity to eat, the option to overeat will still be there.
A person who is truly freed from overeating will be able to go to a potluck dinner and not overeat.
Jesus told us that to look lustfully at woman was adultery in the heart. Notice there was no mention of how dressed or undressed the woman might be. And anybody can affirm that it is quite possible to lust after a woman even while fully clothed.
So, to remove the option of looking lustfully, we must never be in the presence of a woman other than our own wives. I don't believe that was Jesus' intent.
Again, I assert that true freedom is the ability to be around women and not lust, regardless of their state of dress.
Pastor Ed
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Praise6
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 02:45 am |
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Ed Neal
Does your wife know the extent of your struggle?
The option to overeat can be removed. I am bulimic, there have been periods in my life where the option to overeat and thus purge has been removed. Unfortunately, I truly do not want to stop.
You do not have to look at porn. You can look at a woman and deflect the thoughts of lust. Again, does your wife really know?
Last edited on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 02:47 am by Praise6
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Ed Neal
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 03:13 am |
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Praise6 wrote: Does your wife know the extent of your struggle?
I was open with my wife about my struggle before we married.
It has continued to be a temptation in my life throughout our 16 years.
I have admitted my failures to her, though not every time nor with all the details necessarily.
But one thing she is very certain about... right now, I'm free... and she can tell. She used to be worried about what I was doing on the computer if I was on it while she was in bed or away. Honestly, she had legitimate reason to be concerned.
Now, she knows that she has no need to be. I am more open with her than I ever have been before. I literally no longer have any interest in the illicit images. In the last four months, I have been frequently on the computer late into the evening and truly have not had one thought to go out on the net and find some porn.
The difference is profound for me, and she can sense it as well. Our marriage is now stronger and more open than it has probably ever been... and that's HER perspective, not just mine!
The option to overeat can be removed. I am bulimic, there have been periods in my life where the option to overeat and thus purge has been removed. Unfortunately, I truly do not want to stop.
I am really sorry, I was not attempting to make any reference to you or your struggle when I used the illustration about overeating. Please forgive me, it was inappropriate and insensitive.
You do not have to look at porn. You can look at a woman and deflect the thoughts of lust.
My point exactly. And I would reiterate that the state of dress of the woman is not the determining factor either!
Jesus said we could not look to lust. It is indeed possible to look without lust, regardless of the her state of dress!
Pastor Ed
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alpha
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 05:57 am |
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Pastor Ed, I have been really interested in this discussion and the other threads you started. There's a lot of energy here, I can feel it, but I have to admit it's getting a little convoluted.
The major themes you keep coming back to are lies and truth and freedom, specifically freedom from temptation, not freedom from sin. Yes, we all know that "the truth will set us free". But what truth or truths are you specfically referring to that you believe has set you free? If you say its different for each person, what are the lies that you personally held on to that hindered your freedom? How does this idea of shame about your sexuality contribute....I don't exactly get the link of I am not ashamed of my sexuality anymore therefore I no longer desire to look at porn.
Maybe I missed the specifics of your story. Maybe you could share them again. And in love I would suggest, just a little more sharing from your heart and a little less preaching.
Thanks again for turning the heat up in this place.
Last edited on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 05:57 am by alpha
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TimM
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 07:07 am |
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Ed,
Rather than try to address your specific points, I think it might help me most to get the big picture.
I'm finding your posts here oddly elusive. Here's an overview of the thread:
Your initial post talks about all approaches having failed and wonders if anything can work and if freedom is even possible.
Several people then offered what they thought were approaches and hope.
You replied that what we had offered was not hope, and you introduced a hypothetical reader - yourself, or someone else, we wondered? - who found nothing we had said encouraging.
In your latest entry on this thread, you state that you, yourself, are now profoundly free.
Clearly, though, you remain dissatisfied by the testimony of others here.
I'm still trying to work out what this is about. There are lots of hypothetical straw men here, lots of vague readers, lots of levels of indirection. I'm trying to work out who the real Ed is.
Are you free or not?
Your first post seemed to say that you continue to fall and that you are desperate to know if anyone has ever found recovery. I've been there and I relate, and I tried to write to that hurting person out of my own experience.
Then you stopped talking about yourself and used a reader who was didn't like our answers. Now you're free, and you still don't like our answers.
What's this thread about?
If you are free and are worried that those here who are not free are not being given hope, then why not speak from your own experience to offer that hope? Tell us what you used to be like, what changed you, and what you are like now. Listen as others share their own experience, strength and hope. And rather than saying, "You're not giving hope," try to help us see how you were moved past the obstacles that you think we face. Isn't that how it's done? If you're free and cool, then offer hope to others concretely from your own experience instead of just complaining that we're not offering hope in the right way.
I think what you are telling us is more complicated than that, though. To me, your first post was the one that sounded most honest and human and sincere and heartfelt. I think you are still looking for hope and are really not sure it is there, and that this terrifies you in part because it seems inconsistent with your position in the church. I think you're scared now about how honest you were at the beginning. That's the Ed that makes sense to me in this thread.
If that is the real Ed, then I hope you'll let him show his face again. We need to be able to be honest in order to get better. And if that's the real Ed, then let me say a few words to him.
I spent decades searching for the right quick magical sacred act that would let me put my addiction behind me for good. If I could just get the right insight, just be transformed by the right verse, just make the perfect confession, then I could be through with this problem. That was what I thought.
Sex addiction doesn't work that way. It's a real addiction, and it has to be addressed just as seriously as other addictions. The people in my meetings who are also alcoholics or cocaine addicts all seem to think that sex addiction is the hard one to beat. Overcoming an addiction like that takes a lot of tools. For most of us, it takes tools like lots of reading on recovery, like counseling, like 12 step or other face-to-face support groups, like prayer, like journaling, like getting a sponsor and working the steps, like daring to look inside yourself, and the list goes on. It takes becoming a new human being - the human being you once were and are called now to be. I don't know that I have ever met an addict in recovery who didn't think recovery was the hardest thing they had ever done. This isn't a problem we can get past and forget. It's the central task in our lives. We can admit that fact, take it that seriously, and get better.
Or not.
But this is a message of fantastic hope. People recover from addictions. I know people who have been sober from sex addiction for 8, 10, 15, 20 years. That recovery requires complete transformation and learning to live a whole new way of life.
Isn't that fantastic? That kind of transformation is possible. It happens every day to people like you and like me.
It's easy to doubt that. It's easy to find the prospect of being willing to do absolutely anything too scary. How can I dare walk into an SAA meeting? How can I dare talk about myself to a counselor? How can I dare face my wife? How can I dare face myself? What if people find out? What will they do to me, a pastor (in your case) or a teacher (in mine)?
It's easy to let those voices hold us in our addiction. And they can, because this addiction is hard to recover from; and every tool we refuse to let ourselves use just makes it that much harder.
In the past 2 years, I've found that once we become willing to do all these things, to do anything, then there is hope and there are blessings beyond anything I ever imagined was possible. And what I learned in the 35 years before that was that until we reach that point, nobody can make us get better. Deciding to suffer a while longer is always an option for us.
I hope you won't exercise that option, but that you will dare to surrender and to recover. If you are still the Ed of your first post on this thread, then that surrender and recovery probably do look like they are not real, and like they are impossibly hard.
I hope you'll dare to believe the testimony of those who have gone before that there is hope, and that the fellowhip and acceptance of God, of our fellow humans, and of ourselves are there for all of us. We wanted those things all our lives, and we've come to believe deep inside ourselves that they are not possible, not for us, maybe not for anybody.
What do you lose, though, if you take a last desperate chance that the millions of people who say recovery is possible might just be right?
Of course, my apologies if the real Ed is the totally free guy who's just bugged because he doesn't think we're helping others, but who won't tell us how to help them. If he's the real Ed, then I haven't a word for him, though, because I don't yet understand him at all.
Tim M.
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Ed Neal
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 09:31 am |
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Tim,
You are very astute.
I'm sorry if I appeared duplicitous, but I have been very intentional about everything that I have said.
From my very first posts, I never said that I was not free. Rather I emphasized my understanding of the lifelong struggle.
I didn't want to come it and just declare, "Guess what, Guys! I have the answer cuz I'm free now!"
I wanted to relate you you all and let you know that I'm one who understands.
I also began raising questions that mirrored the kinds of questions that I had been addressing in my own study and research about related issues.
I wanted to see if anyone could or would offer hope that it was possible to find the freedom that I genuinely have come to experience. As you can tell, I was somewhat disappointed with the answers I received, because it seemed that no one really held out any hope that my experience (which I didn't let on about) was something anyone could genuinely hope for.
But in fact, I am VERY eager to share my experience with everyone... but as I've alluded to a number of times, the lies that I uncovered in my life are so surprising and unexpected that they would most likely be rejected out of hand and without any real consideration at all!
Therefore, I didn't just come in here blowing off my mouth as it were. I wanted to earn your respect and the right to be heard.
But I assure you that its all the real me. The earlier posts were a reflection of the life I've known for 30+ years (and I never actually said it was still true), and the more recent comments reflect my current reality.
I really can sit at my computer, which really is without any sort of porn filter, and be on the internet for hours, and with no one else around, without the slightest desire or even thought of cruising out for any porn.
I lived 30 years with the up and down victory/defeat cycle... but even during "victorious" periods of time, like everybody else, the allure/desire for the illicit stuff remained... and every time, it eventually pulled me back in.
With God as my witness, I declare to you that that allure it utterly gone... like it NEVER has been before! The difference that I feel in my heart is so profound that I cannot adequately express it.
Some might look at me and say, "Hey it's only been 4 months... let me know when it's been 4 years." and I have no satisfactory answer to that... I can only say that whenever I went 4 months before, it was nothing like this. As the Scriptures warn, I shall take heed since right now I believe that I stand, lest I fall, but at this moment, I really can't even imagining have any desire for those wicked lying images anymore.
As to when and how I tell the rest of my story, I'm unsure how I should proceed. This is not my forum. I want to submit to the moderators and administrators of the website. I might take my story to them first rather than publish it openly.
Or, if anyone wishes to contact me by private email, I'll be glad to share with them one to one.
As I said, you are very astute to have observed my manner and noticed that I was not letting everything out at once.
Ok. Now that's about as open as I can be for the moment.
Thanks for writing.
Pastor Ed
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TimM
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 03:32 pm |
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Ed,
Fascinating. OK, that's an interpretation that hadn't occurred to me, but that also makes sense.
I appreciate the care you are taking not to come in and take over someone else's forum by proclaiming yourself to be the guide for all of us before we have even met. Not everyone has that care and that level of caution about their own recovery. Trying to work with the owners of the board seems thoughtful and prudent.
Just as a member of the audience, though, may I react to the way you have presented yourself? I feel hurt and used by it.
You apologize lightly "if I appeared duplicitous." Do you understand that the appearance isn't really the issue, and that you might have appeared duplicitous because you were duplicitous, and that you haven't apologized for that? You haven't said, "I'm sorry I lied to you by presenting myself for my own agenda as someone other than who I am."
I admit that I am reacting strongly here, but I think the point is very important. A central part of the addictive cycle is dishonesty, which all of us have used again and again to keep people at a distance and to enable our addiction. This is why the principle of rigorous honesty is such an absolutely central part of the 12-step program and of the Christian faith.
It's hard and scary and unnatural for most of us to be honest at all times. We have to work very, very hard at it. People in recovery settings are often here spilling our souls and admitting things about ourselves we have never told another human being and that we can scarcely bear to admit to ourselves. We do that in deep shame and fear. We can do it at all because we believe we are all brothers and sisters and because we expect that others here will treat us with equal honesty and respect. Our ability to be honest and open and to share as equals is both infinitely precious and infinitely delicate.
What comes across to me as a failure on your part to be honest strikes hard at the ability of others to be honest. How can I tell the brutal truth about myself if others hold back? How can I trust a group containing people who feel they need not be honest with me because they are above me? That I, for my recovery, need to spill my guts; but that they, not in the pit with me, are entitled to spin and withhold information so that they maneuver me to behave in the way they know is right for me?
I think that a stealthy, calculated withholding of the truth from one's underlings is an extraordinarily dangerous decision, both for one's own recovery, for the recovery of others in the community and for the possibility of future fellowship with those others. I hope you will think very carefully in the future about whether that sort of stealth is really the best tool for Christian ministry. To me, it feels like a huge violation of community and of trust.
Having said how I feel in the face of what I do think is apparent duplicity, let me also be clear that for what it's worth, this member of the audience welcomes you here. You're here with good reason trying to be careful and to do good, and I respect that. While I don't think your introduction was appropriate, all the addicts here are here because we have done far worse things than that in the past. Lying to people who are absolute experts at lying and who are now fanatically devoted to the truth may not have been a totally great idea, but we are all here hoping that there is forgiveness for our own sins, our own arrogance, our own duplicity. Welcoming someone else with the same issues we have is easy. This misunderstanding will pass. Do remember, though, that in many recovery circles, a very high value is placed on behaving and presenting oneself at all times with the absolute highest level of honesty of which one is capable.
Just my take, of course; a data point to be used or ignored as you see fit.
Tim M.
Last edited on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 03:38 pm by
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Ed Neal
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 05:11 pm |
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TimM wrote: Just as a member of the audience, though, may I react to the way you have presented yourself? I feel hurt and used by it.
You apologize lightly "if I appeared duplicitous." Do you understand that the appearance isn't really the issue, and that you might have appeared duplicitous because you were duplicitous, and that you haven't apologized for that? You haven't said, "I'm sorry I lied to you by presenting myself for my own agenda as someone other than who I am."
Brother Tim,
My first reaction to your comments is... "Rats, I've blown it again!"
Let me tell you why. The new understanding that I have and the impact it has had in my life is so amazing to me that I'm just dying to tell people about it and share the news with others.
My first attempt involved a pastors' forum. I never posted anything, but rather spoke directly with the moderator by email. He was definitely not ready for the things I had to share and quickly wrote me off and actually banned me from the pastors' forum... before I even posted one time!
I tried it one way that didn't work, I tried it another way here.
I came differently, more cautiously. I decided to connect with the people here first... get a feel for who was here and what the climate was. It was somewhat discouraging, since it seemed so inactive. I actually wroke Mike about it, asking why that was the case.
I was certainly not trying to be duplicitous and in my heart, I know that I was not!
It reminds me of a time when I had a friend who was fighting homosexuality in his life. I encouraged him to attend a support group specific to that. I offered to go with him to support him. I had been open with him about my struggle, too, so at the meeting, I shared with the guys there about my struggles, as well. But I never let on that they had nothing to do with homosexuality. I did not want to portray myself as somehow "better" because I don't struggle with that! I wanted to connect and relate. My friend was amazed (and grateful) that I had done that.
Same thing here, I certainly did NOT want to come in and say, "Look, guys, I'm better than you cuz I've licked it!" I wanted you all to know first of all that I understand the lifetime struggle thing!
I also didn't want to come in here with some sort of super-spiritual mantle of greatness "because I'm completely free!" The truth is that the kind of daily walking with the Lord and seeking His strength moment by moment that Mike exhibits and teaches about is something that I really admire and wish was more true of my life! I am not a spiritual giant!
But I'm free from the allure of pornography. The only explanation I can give is the truth of Jesus' words in John 8:32. I was not even trying to find that freedom, quite frankly. I was reexamining my beliefs for a completely different reason. But even as I began to adjust my beliefs, I could feel the allure fade.
Tim, I did not want to set myself apart from everyone else! I wanted to relate. I described my experience in the past, while never saying that I was still in bondage. I asked people if they believed total freedom was possible. I myself declared from the very beginning that I truly believed that the freedom I was describing in my questions was possible! No one ever asked me why I believed so. No one asked me what I thought the key was. For a long time, no one turned my own questions on me. And no one ever affirmed the possibility that such a freedom could actually be a reality in our lives.
I'm really sorry to have caused you to feel used. That surely was not in my heart. I was really trying to be as honest as I felt I could be. Unfortunately, with what I'm prepared to share, most would not be willing to receive or even consider it. What good would it be if my voice were silenced before I even had a chance to share my good news?
I hope you will think very carefully in the future about whether that sort of stealth is really the best tool for Christian ministry. To me, it feels like a huge violation of community and of trust.
Brother, I thank you for your straight talk. As I said at the beginning, my first response is "Rat's, I've blown it again." I surely wish I had the wisdom to know how to share all this with people in a way that will encourage them and actually be heard by them, and at the same time, honor them and the community while treating all with dignity. That was hard to say, but it's still MUCH easier said than done!
Just my take, of course; a data point to be used or ignored as you see fit.
You are a good and perceptive man, my Brother! Certainly not one to be ignored!
Tim M.
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