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alpha
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Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 08:24 pm |
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I'm new here. In fact this is my first post. I've been reading this board for the last few months, however.
Sidney, your friends' story is similar to my own. I have suffered since junior high school with homosexual desires. This was before the internet and primarily I viewed porn in binges a couple times a year, but masturbated to homosexual fantasy though most of my adolescence. I didn't act out with anyone else - but with one person for a short time at a Christian college. Because we were both Christians the experience was more devestating to both of us than it was pleasurable. For much of my late teens and twenties I was an active volunteer in youth ministry suffering with these desires the whole time.
I think many of the reasons you cited in an earlier post are accurate as explanations for homosexual desires. The damaged relationship with father and intense relationship with mother can contribute, but I want to offer an additional explanation that I've only recently begun to recognize, your friend's view of God.
Why would a person who struggles with these thoughts and behaviors put himself in a ministry position where he will be publically scandalized and disgraced if discovered? Why not get a job at a bank, or office, or construction worker where your moral life doesn't matter as much? For me, I was 'addicted' to the ministry probably more than the lust/porn/masturbation.
I loved the recognition, the success, the influence, the affirmation, being needed, being useful, the greater purpose. It provided meaning to my otherwise meaningless life that had been frought with pain and isolation from the broken family that I was raised in. I was sexually compulsive, but I was a workaholic first. I was so because (as is referenced on this site so often) I had zero understanding of God's grace. I thought all my ministering might undo all the guilt and shame I felt for the homosexual desires. I thought if I ministered hard and effectively enough and read my Bible and prayed, then those desires might even go away.
I have realized that all my efforts (works) made my problems worse. Once I convinced myself that I had to earn God's love, there was no way I could ever do it. I would always find a reason that I wasn't deserving. That plunged me into a cycle of shame and despair and isolation, where the only comfort available was sexual stimulation and imaginary love and intimacy.
The isolation and lonliness was amplified by my position in ministry. By the admission of those around me, I was talanted and effective. But in my position, there was just no place to struggle, grieve and address hard questions. There were no healthy examples of transparency, honesty or accountability. I was convinced that I was going to eventually crash and burn. I watched several other people crash around me, I knew it was just a matter of time. I didn't want to be a public disgrace; I didn't want my name to be forever linked to my sin, but the accolades were too much to give up.
I started buring out after five years of this life. I was angry at God and the church. I didn't believe much of what I was teaching anymore. I saw God as harsh, cruel, judgmental. He promised us power and victory over sin that never came. I was afraid I probably going to hell despite "my best efforts" to do everything right. I hated God for doing this to me. Ministry had stopped masking my wounds and my sexual desires. It wasn't giving me my 'high' anymore, it was really starting to bring me down. That's when I moved to the next level. I sinned with another person, felt horrible and confessed. I was removed, but because I confessed I was spared the public disgrace and allowed to resign.
Don't get any ideas, it hasn't been pretty and wonderful since. I went into a decade- long withdrawl from God and church loaded with internet porn that I'm only now getting the courage to come out of.
The key to coming out of it was to begin to understand grace. Knowing grace requires you to be honest with your whole person. There was no way I could I have done that while still in ministry where I was pretending to be what I thought I was suppose to be. You can't know God's love while you are faking it and lying to yourself. What I was lying the most about were my motives for ministry. I was ministering so that God would love me, because I didn't believe that He really did. Everything else was a coping mechanism for that wound.
Sydney, I don't think it is possible for your friend to do the work required to address all his pain while he's is faking that he has it all together. He needs to find a place where he can be real. It needs to be both with other men that understand the true nature of his homosexual desires and heterosexual men that can love him and demonstrate acceptance despite those desires. He needs to feel God's love independent of the things that he believes he is doing for God. If he's is in love with his position and the accolades and thinks this will compensate for how much he hates himself, he will crash and burn. He would be wise to step down before this happens.
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luckysidney
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Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 09:49 pm |
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alpha........
YES YES YES YES YES!!!!! God bless you for sharing this........I know it takes courage to post stuff and you are so on target here! That's it exactly. He has no understanding of grace. The last time I saw him I brought him a cross for his office that simply said "grace" across it.........and told him it was because i wanted him to see a visual reminder of grace every day. I know he doesn't understand it or accept it......and I doubt he's ever seen it demonstrated even by his family. He's been in ministry nearly 20 years and prides himself on how good he is at his job. He is remarkably talented....but I have also wondered why he would stay in this field when he could probably have found another type of profession with lower personal standards. (and therefore less guilt) He is working to be "good enough" and of course failing miserably. (as we all would) Yes a crash is coming......I don't want to initiaite it if I don't have to, but it will happen eventually anyway.
May I ask you two things?.............
First......was there a wife involved in your situation? And how did that play out?
and Second........ what you would personally think the most loving, God-filled, thing I could do for him would be? If I had been your friend at the time......what would have helped?
Again.......I so appreciate your sharing! God Bless!
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alpha
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Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 01:53 am |
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1. I am married. I was not married while I was in ministry. We were dating during that time. I was as honest as I could be with her. I told her early on about my homosexual desires. We did a lot of talking about it, but my need was for male connection (non-sexual) and she was not able to fill it. After I was done with ministry, I withdrew and began frequenting porn sites. I wrongly believed that if I was honest with my wife about my habits then things would be okay. In my family growing up, the lying, secrecy and double-lives caused most of the damage. So I thought if I could nurse my wounds with porn no one would get hurt as long as I didn't lie about. My wife was in denial about how much I was hurting her. It wasn't until she found her voice, that I was forced to wake up.
Our struggles have been similar to your friend's. She has wanted me to just "fix it" and "get better". Her shame about my secrets has at times been greater than mine. She has felt just as alone and isolated as I have. We are still working through it. It has been hard, but we have gotten real with each other like never before. When all is said and done, I believe she will be my greatest asset. This would not have been possible while we were on public display in ministry. The fear of not looking righteous would have too great. The temptation to slap a God-shaped band-aid on the problem and keep going would have been too easy.
We both are very glad to not have the pressures of ministry on us while we work on our marriage and family. We are free be angry, sad, and hurt, to laugh, cry and love each other without fear of being exposed as flawed human beings -- really flawed human beings, not the self-depricating slightly flawed people they still allow to preach. We are free to be ourselves and work to understand that God loves us there without performance and without perfection.
Faking it in ministry is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
I'll answer your second question later.
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Joel2:25
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Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 06:36 pm |
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Alpha,
May God bless you. I sit here slackjawed (and thanking God for someone who can be honest when the rubber meets the road) reading your honesty. Had you changed a few details I would have sworn you were my husband posting! You give me hope in the long run. Keep on.
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luckysidney
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Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 07:01 pm |
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Alpha......
I also thank you again for your honesty. It is great to have an anonymous place where people can practice being open. (and it does take practice!.....I don't think it comes easily to many people!)
I'm eager to hear your response to my second question, as I think you have alot of insight to share. You sound like you've really walked in my friends shoes.
Blessings.......
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alpha
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Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 06:56 am |
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luckysidney wrote: Second........ what you would personally think the most loving, God-filled, thing I could do for him would be? If I had been your friend at the time......what would have helped?
This is a hard question. I am not an expert. I think I'll have to leave it to others to recommend for or against exposing him to his superiors. But I can answer what I wish someone had done for me.
I was unbearably lonely, terrified of failing but thought that was the only way life could be. I wish someone could have broken through my isolation with understanding and hope.
During my time in ministry, I had sought counsel before from pastors who didn't flat out reject me but clearly didn't understand. I felt like a scientific specimen as I was asked questions about the extent of my struggles and activities. I gave the best answers I could. I was terrified that I might be declared unsuitable for ministry. Most of my requests for help seemed to be about making just that determination. Once I was approved, I was isolated again by confidentiality and I was rarely if ever asked how I was doing.
In truth, I never presented myself as fully desperate as I actually was because I was so scared the people I respected would declare me an irredeemable pervert. I wasn't purposefully lying, but there were things I was afraid to even admit to myself. I needed to encounter someone who I knew had been in my shoes. That had the same struggles as me. Had tried the same things. Had failed as many times. Easy answers didn't cut it. I needed to know that there was another way. I was giving it all I had to give, but it wasn't working. I couldn't listen to anymore of the same old things that didn't work from people who didn't get where I was coming from. I was only going to hear it from somebody who had been where I was.
I needed to hear from somebody with success and thereby find hope, again. Your friend has no hope for himself; this is clear. I didn't have any for myself either because I only heard homosexuals spoken of as unlovable and unreachable - the worst of the worst. I needed to hear that there was a way out and I needed to believe the people that were offering the way out.
I needed someone to tell me that it was okay to step out of ministry. To convince me I wouldn't be a a failure if I left and that I wouldn't be abandoned. That it didn't mean I was irredeemable and unusable. I already thought that I was a horrible person. If it were determined by others that I should leave ministry, to me, that would mean that I really was horrible. I needed to know that I would still be loved if I was out of the spotlight. And very importantly, I needed to be shown a way out. I was too enmeshed relationally and emotionally to leave on my own. Someone needed to convince me I'd be better off out of ministry than in it.
I know all of that is a tall order but that's where I was emotionally. I felt trapped. I knew I was going to self-destruct, but I couldn't stop it. I needed someone to penetrate that confusion and helplessness.
So the only thing I can practically suggest is do some of the leg work for him. Find the people and the ministries in his area that can penetrate his fog of hopeless and put him in contact with them. Give him the phone numbers, the websites, set up the meetings if he is willing. Make your friend's first steps require as little effort as possible and hold his hand while he makes them.
I think I've been clear that I believe he should leave ministry for now. Do everything you can to convince him to step aside from his ministry job. This isn't to do God or his church a favor; its because it's the best thing for your friend. And don't set a date for a return. If a return ever happens, it should be years not months. That he fell once publically and is willing to risk it again is mind boggling to me.
I wish I could tell you exactly what to do or give an easier pain-free option. Chances are likely, he may still refuse to do anything. Fear of change and accompanying pain are great. The familiar is easier until you hit bottom.
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luckysidney
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 05:31 am |
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well......time for an update.....and I again request as much feedback as possible please!
My family did take a trip to where my friend is.....but he was scheduled to be out of town the entire time and we were unable to meet. (actually a bit of a relief for me!)
Since that trip....we have emailed a couple of times. (about every other week or so) The last time, I had sent him an article for his group at church and added a few brief lines of support (quite platonic). His wife abruptly wrote me back and "reminded" me....in no uncertain terms.... that he has plenty of support there. (which ..... by the way..... is not true) I wrote her back immediately (I was pretty startled by her letter) and re-emphasized that my words of support are towards the entire family and apologizing if there was any misunderstanding. I also reminded her that I was speaking for my whole family and with my husband's knowledge and support of everything I wrote. I tried to take it lighter than she had voiced it....as if I would've never expected the message to have intentionally been written as harshly as it came across. Mine was a open and friendly letter to her....including news about my family and questions about hers. I am guessing she's stressed to the max and worried about me on several levels.... not the least of which being that I could share what I know and change her world forever.
Since then.....I've sent only one email....to both of them.....expressing my ongoing prayer and friendship and a bit of confusion ...stated in about 2 sentences.
He was supposed to be across the country this week for a seminar....(so I didn't expect to hear from him....but figured he'd call or write and brag about it when he got back) On a whim.....I checked his "profiles" and saw that, yes, he had taken a computer with him on the trip and had visited his profile. (this was the first time I had checked on his use in weeks....by the way) Anyway.....I had been praying for God to show me when it was time to take things to his church leadership....etc. As I was not wanting to do that....I had asked God to make it really clear if he was beyond what willpower and support and prayer could help. Well.....I know this makes me sound weird.....but I felt like I should just look at the chat room for the location where he was this week.....and I actually was there only a couple of minutes before he logged in and I witnessed him basically soliciting for someone to set up an encounter with him. I was appalled and so sad.....as I had really hoped he wasn't acting out with other people. But clearly, he is...and probably has been for a while.
Well......I'm done. As someone commented earlier......this is draining on me emotionally and taking time and energy from my family. I had prayed God would show me when I could be finished "holding the rope" for him and this is clearly it. I'm so sad for those in his group who I know idolize him. He works with teens and they are especially vulnerable to replace their admiration for their parents with admiration for a leader of some sort. When this comes out it will be devastating.....I've seen a group go through it. (and the fallout continues years later)
Where I need advice and feedback now is on how to proceed. He has a male accountability partner in his church.....(who is not up to date I'm sure). I have spoken to his pastor before with little response. His wife is in survival mode. I don't have any real church contacts there. He does live near an Exodus International office and I wondered if they might be able to advise me or something. I have also thought about going to the local associational office of his denomination and asking for guidance. Should I put the info on a cd or something so it will be preserved? I could "freeze" his profiles (yes....I have access to do that.....sigh) in order to keep the evidence if those I go to don't believe me. (but I don't want to accidently commit some kind of crime) I am afraid that whoever I go to will try to make me the issue......but I am so not the issue. I am neither a stalker....haha....probably looks like it at times.....nor an enemy out to set him up and make him fall. I am a very sad friend that had to have the situation proven to them boldly before she would believe it was as out of control as it is. Because this is a small town....there really isn't a local pastor I would trust to handle this correctly. (many of them have already delt with this person....or would love to bring him down....or their church has just had their own similar issue and their still reeling....etc.)
I'm relieved that it's almost over for me....but sad for his family and those in the church. I hope that he'll get help.....and I'll be sure the resources are available so he'll know what's around.....but he's faked recovery several times before. I hope that it's possible that some day.........years from now........this will prove to have been the very best course of events. But for now.....I'm just worried about what will happen next.
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luckysidney
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 05:13 am |
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Mike? Steve? Alpha? Joel........anyone?
Please give me some direction......
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Joel2:25
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 04:55 pm |
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Sidney,
I read that post and my heart really was grieved for you. You've been in my prayers since you posted again. I hestitate to even write what's on my heart ... as I'm sure it will come across as harsh, but I've prayed ... and the same answer keeps coming to me. My advice?
Turn this man and his family and his church over to God. Totally. Sever all contact with them. Don't check up on him, don't worry over him, let GOD deal with him with you out of the picture. You have obviously tried and prayed for *years* about this situation and he has no intention of turning back. It's time to ....
Pull a Matthew 10:14, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."
I would block their emails, do everything I could to disassociate myself with the entire situation. Let him find out ...
"It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." -- Hebrews 10:31.
You MUST put God and your spouse and your family first. I sense you're worried half to death over this situation. I think it's time to ditch the emotional entanglement and move on.
Sorry to sound like such a downer .... you're in my prayers.Last edited on Thu Nov 9th, 2006 04:56 pm by Joel2:25
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luckysidney
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 05:31 pm |
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Joel........
Thank you for your honesty. It IS time for me to walk away........and I have in my spirit (for the most part) and feel the kind of peace that comes when you are going God's direction. But don't I have a responsibility of some sort to bring this to the "elders"? (Matt 18) This is the only point that keeps me from feeling closure over this issue. It's as if, by not reporting it, I hold some level of responsibility for his future actions. (for example, if he involves a teen) I would appreciate your response. (and anyone else who wants to chime in!)
Blessings, (and thank you so much for praying!)
Sidney
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Joel2:25
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 05:42 pm |
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| "The Elders" (his pastor and his accountability partner) already know. And they are choosing to bless his sin by swiveling their heads and their responsibilities in the opposite direction.
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gaylon
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 11:57 pm |
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I'm jumping in on this thread just to say that I'm a lay leader in my church, in a highly visible position in our city. I believe in serving wherever I'm asked to serve, and for however long I'm asked. However, it's been a conflict in my heart, since I've asked my lay "superior" to be able to step down from this position, to give me time to heal. As luckysidney says
"...begin to understand grace. Knowing grace requires you to be honest with your whole person. There was no way I could I have done that while still in ministry where I was pretending to be what I thought I was suppose to be. You can't know God's love while you are faking it..."
I feel hindered in my ability to really yield 100% to God, because several times a week I'm having to put on my "church face" for people that I minister to -- some of them with the same problem of porn addiction. I've actually told a handful of these people about my struggles, in an effort to help them, and have helped several couples on their way to healing as a result. But, my lay leader doesn't want me to talk about it, since it would "embarass the church". I'm the one tasked with setting up a 12-step group for porn addicts in our area, but am told I will not be able to attend it. I guess I can go to a group in a different church...
I'm really saying this here only because I don't feel I have anywhere else to "vent", where I will be understood...
I suppose I'll be able to work through it ok, but it feels like every time I go to church, I take a step backwards in my healing, instead of forward, and it doesn't seem like it should be that way... Maybe I should say it more bluntly to my leader, before I just step down arbitrarily. If I can still do some good, I want to do it, but I also want to heal, and fall into the arms of Christ, without having to "fake it" at church...
Thanks for "listening"...
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luckysidney
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 04:38 am |
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Hi Gaylon......
Just to be fair.......your quote was from Alpha........as he was so brave to share I want to be sure he gets "credit", because he was very insightful.
Your situation is just the kind the church needs to address. They must be sensitive to the fact that even leaders (heck....especially leaders) struggle with different areas of temptation. It doesn't help anyone for a leader to "fake" it. The truth could come to light and hurt the entire church's credibility.......but you also are missing out on a chance to be transparant, heal, and share your growth and learning with others. Who better to participate in a group than a person who struggles and also strives to grow and help others grow in their Christian walk. ..........sigh............ sometimes the church's decisions just frustrate me.
I hope that if you were more blunt with your "superior" lay person, that they would see the benefit to allowing you to step down, open up, and share your struggles and healing with others in the same (or worse) situations. If that couldn't happen, I would consider looking for a different place to heal. Transparancy is key.... you need a place, a group of people you can trust.
Just my opinion.......best wishes and blessings......I'm glad you shared, ....Sidney
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gaylon
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 05:08 am |
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Thanks - to both Alpha and LuckySidney. It helps much just to have someone understand... I'll pray and see if I feel direction from God and then head that way...
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