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Joel2:25
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Posted: Mon Aug 21st, 2006 10:55 pm |
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Just musing out loud .....
If a man cannot be faithful to God, can he be faithful to his wife?
If a man cannot be faithful to his wife, can he be faithful to God?
Can that man be faithful in other areas of his life, while actively being unfaithful? Such as finances, time, finishing up jobs, etc.?
Christ used methaphorical language regarding marriage so much, I cannot for the life of me put a separation between marriage and our faithfulness to God.
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truthseeker
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Posted: Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 02:40 am |
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Thought provoking questions, indeed.
As we cannot completely refrain from sinning, and any sin could be viewed as being unfaithful to God, then that might suggest that we are never completely faithful to Him. There are probably both believers and unbelievers who are faithful to their spouses, so relationship with God is not necessarily connected to faithfulness in marriage.
If I haven't confused things enough already...
Which came first, the chicken or the egg. Does giving in to temptation, and the resulting guilt/shame, cause us to withdraw from a close relationship with God? Or do we fall in to temptation because we have already allowed a lapse in our closeness with God? I would guess that it is probably a viscious circle, most likely beginning with becoming spiritually lazy/negligent.
Just my thoughts.
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Joel2:25
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Posted: Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 03:53 am |
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You know, I had thought about unbelievers being faithful to their spouses, but not to God. So I had kinda' wondered about that one.
I like the spiritually lazy/negligent remark. I agree, it's a vicious circle. And the climbing out can be just as hard. It's like you have to make a turnaround from the laziness and suddenly get real industrious. I think that's another reason I was pondering the concept of faithfulness in other areas, the remark you made about spiritually laziness.
I try to attain, and fall flat on my face most days, excellence for God. My personal goal of excellence for God means I manage to get mediocrity out of every corner of my life that day. If I'm scrubbing the toilet, excellence for God means having that baby shining, not just "making it look reasonably clean". KWIM?
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truthseeker
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Posted: Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 02:17 pm |
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"I try to attain, and fall flat on my face most days, excellence for God. My personal goal of excellence for God means I manage to get mediocrity out of
every corner of my life that day."
So do we all, or at least most of us I'd guess. :-)
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stacie73s
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Posted: Thu Nov 2nd, 2006 04:48 pm |
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| It's called "spiritual laziness." Addicts don't have the time to give God. Period. They are SELFISH. They don't want to change. Abundant prayer and christians friends is needed for these individuals.
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alpha
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Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 01:56 am |
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Joel2:25 wrote: I try to attain, and fall flat on my face most days, excellence for God. My personal goal of excellence for God means I manage to get mediocrity out of every corner of my life that day. If I'm scrubbing the toilet, excellence for God means having that baby shining, not just "making it look reasonably clean". KWIM?
I'm really having trouble with this comment. I think God is more interested in our hearts than in our toilets. There are plenty of reasons that I can think of that God would ask us to settle for "reasonably clean" so that we can do something more relational and positive ie. Mary and Martha.
Are our lives so much different? We all start where we are when we start. There really is no other choice. God loves me with a dirty toilet - He even accepts me with one. He is faithful to us despite the fact that we will always fail him (eg Peter's denial). There is only process and improvement, never perfection. Why harangue and beat up on myself because every flaw I can perceive in myself or my spouse or my marriage is not corrected immediately?
I am not suggesting that one need to put up with a unfaithful spouse. Granted the physical act of adultery is a violation for which even the Bible allows for divorce. But I don't think the answers are a simple as suggested. Faithfulness is not an on-off switch, it is a gradient . We are not either faithful or unfaithful in regard to God. We are more or less faithful. Some days less; some days more. The same is true with a spouse in the heart where feelings ebb and flow. It requires discipline and commitment to catch ourselves when our minds wander to other persons or relationships and refocus our attentions and efforts on to our spouse.
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Billyeah
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Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 04:49 pm |
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| Where does the Bible say adultry is grounds for divorce, I have never found it.
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Joel2:25
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Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 08:48 pm |
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Alpha, while I understand what you're saying, I still stand by my words. It's in the Old Testament ... whatever you set your sights on, do it with your might. One of the problems I see with addicts (and co-dependents as well many times) is a total lack of self-discipline. I see no reason to sit on my duff all day and do nada and let my world fall around my head and then use the excuse, "Well, hey, God knows my heart". We have to start somewhere, and cleaning toilets was only an example of what I feel is a higher calling to a Christian. Besides salvation, what separates Christians from the rest of the world? Not much from where I'm standing. I believe we're called out of the world, called out of mediocrity, called to excellence. Not that I believe in "prosperity thinking" but I DO believe we are called to shine in whatever we're doing. IF you can be faithful in the small things you can be faithful in the big things. It's a matter of setting an example and following thru ... no matter how insignificant you think any particular activity might be.
I know people who can "talk the talk" but absolutely CANNOT "walk the walk". In other words, they're big talkers, and that's about it. Why not follow through and show a desire to be an ambassador to the King whether you're scrubbing toilets in his service or working on Wall Street? I think there is a huge correlation between the willlingness to give oneself over to God and our willingness to be a servant and a GOOD servant, not just one that can slosh through by the skin of their teeth.
Blessings ...
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truthseeker
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Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 09:27 pm |
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Hi Bill,
I think that most people draw that conclusion from Matt. 19:3-9 and similar passages.
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Billyeah
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Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 11:12 pm |
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But that's not what Matthew 19:3-9 says. Here is the passage in the KJV.
3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Now it all really comes down to the last verse, where it says "except it be for fornication." Fornication is sex before marraige. Adultry is something totally different. In this passage he is talking to Jews who at the time often (if not always) had arranged marraiges. They didn't know their bride before they got married and as a result wouldn't have known if she was a virgin or not, until their wedding night. What Jesus is saying here is if you have been married and you find out she isn't a virgin, she's been fornicating, then you may put her away.
As far as I understand adultry is something totally different. And in all fairness, Jesus then says if you have looked with lust you have committed adultry in your heart, so basically that means anyone anywhere can get divorced, because I don't know of anyone who has never looked with lust, male or female.
Does that make any sense at all?
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Joel2:25
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Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 02:27 am |
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Actually, fornication and adultery are the same thing. It's just the twist we give them. They're both intimate relations outside of a marriage bond. The root word used in that passage is "porneia", which includes the definitions of fornication, adultery, incest, homosexuality and bestiality. (interesting root word, eh?).
Matthew 5:32 is another passage that deals with it. God DOES hate divorce, that I won't argue. But, covenant breakers have never been highly esteemed in the biblical sense. It comes down to grace and mercy, and how much a person can take of an adulterous spouse.
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Billyeah
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Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 06:11 pm |
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See what I can't understand, God hates divorce. That is obvious. So how come, people who say God is the centre of their life and they want to do whatever they can to serve him, would so quickly get divorced? There is a recent stat that I found very pathetic: Divorce is just as likely within the church as out side the church. What's the deal?
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truthseeker
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 06:12 pm |
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God hates all sin. Why do those of us who profess Jesus Christ keep on sinning? There are, of course, many answers to this question, not least of which is our fleshly weakness, which, unfortunately, is not utterly removed upon our salvation.
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Billyeah
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 09:11 pm |
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| Here is something I have been wondering a lot. About myself as much as anyone. I am not saying we can lose our salvation by sinning. But at what point does it become clear you were never saved in the first place. Christians will sin, like you said, it's our fleshy weakness. But at what point does it become evident that the person isn't really a believer in christ? If we are believers we should abhore sin, and cling to that which is good. So if we walk in darkness, we fool ourselves and the light is not in us. But what's the balance? Where is the line? I think only God really knows for sure. But I do think it is worth looking into. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
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alpha
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 10:16 pm |
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Billyeah wrote: I think only God really knows for sure. But I do think it is worth looking into. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I think with that you said just about all that needs to be said on the subject. Emphasis is mine.
I'll throw this into the discussion, however. I read it on another site and it's really speaking to me today....
"Faithfulness does not mean 'not failing', but 'not quitting'. When God welcomes us as a "good and faithful servant" He does not mean "good servant who never failed" but "servant who never gave up"
Last edited on Mon Nov 6th, 2006 11:21 pm by alpha
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Billyeah
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 11:38 pm |
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| Good point. As long as we are struggling at least it means we are still fighting. If we stop struggling with lust, it isn't because we have won the battle, it's cause we lost.
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Billyeah
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 11:41 pm |
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| Good point. As long as we are struggling at least it means we are still fighting. If we stop struggling with lust, it isn't because we have won the battle, it's cause we lost.
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Billyeah
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 11:43 pm |
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Sorry about the double post.
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