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| I just don't understand | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24th, 2009 11:55 pm |
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1st Post |
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Denise11 Member 
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I just don't understand. I am a very inquisitive woman and I seem to need to put a psychological reason to certain behaviors. I have to know as much as I can so I have to ask questions. I can't trust my husband to answer honestly. I need someone to explain to me what is so compelling about porn? I've viewed it myself after discovering my husband's "stash" of downloads and some of the women in it aren't even pretty. I found it totally disgusting (of course) but what is it that draws someone? Is it that it's forbidden and men know it's wrong which makes it more exciting? Is it that men are looking for their "fantasy" woman that their wife can't seem to be? Is it watching the act of "whatever" itself? Is porn and "m" more exciting than relations with ones spouse? I am lost here, I just don't understand. Someone help me get a clearer understanding of why people do this.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25th, 2009 12:11 pm |
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TM2 Member
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Any addiction looks pretty incomprehensible to those outside, doesn't it? The joy of drinking until you black out and vomit and awaken with a pounding headache is what, again? Spending $8000 in an evening on crack was better than using it on a 2-month holiday in France for what reason, exactly? I don't think this question is unique to our addiction. I don't know if you've read people like Patrick Carnes who try to dissect and describe the addictive cycle, but it's worth doing so if you haven't. For me, there has always been a deep fear of my own feelings and of the feelings of others. I've tried to hide behind a rational and asexual persona. P lets me maintain that facade and that safe distance. It lets me run from feelings alone while still offering a reward. It lets me view from outside an imagined world which I have forbidden myself to enter in which sexual desires are openly admitted and acted upon. That world is far too scary in real life, but I find it immensely alluring as a fantasy. All those things contribute to making P my drug of choice. But at bottom, I think addiction is addiction, and that the drug of choice doesn't matter very much. I've never had a drinking problem, but I read the AA Big Book and instantly say, "These are my people! I'm just like that!" Addiction is about a cycle of shame followed by acting out to medicate the pain followed by more shame because of the acting out. It's about isolation from others, trapped in a world of fear and resentment and guilt and shame. It's about striving for control and rejecting trust and openness. It's about believing that no one would love me if they saw how I really am. The list goes on from there, but that's a start. Addiction has to be understood on that level, and recover has to be sought on that level. Our particular drug is a detail. We may be caught right now in a feedback loop with one particular pleasure stimulus, but it's a common experience of addicts that the choice of drug is mutable, and that the easiest way to recover from one addiction is to switch to a different one. Does this make sense? It's what I think I learn both from others and from inside myself, but the behavior of addicts is not easy to understand even from inside. Tim M.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25th, 2009 08:53 pm |
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dennis1soil Member
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--- I need someone to explain to me what is so compelling about porn? - Is porn and "m" more exciting than relations with ones spouse? Hi Denise11, I'll try to give you my most honest answers. First the question about whether looking at porn is "more exciting" than relations with my spouse. A. Absolutely not. For me, I have always preferred being with my wife something like 5000 to 1 times better than viewing any kind of porn. The question that fit's me better however is something like "Is porn more exciting than no sexual feelings at all?" A. yes. Now for your main question. Overall porn is compelling because sexuality is compelling. It is sort of "built in" so to speak, whereas (as far as my view is concerned) drugs or alcohol are not built in. Now I'll mention some things which I think apply to myself - but I don't really know if they apply to other guys. Somehow I think it has gotten into an inner core of my being that my manliness is affirmed by a woman who desires me sexually and who enjoys and seeks out both the process of being pleased by me and pleasing me by offering me the opportunity to enjoy seeing her while she is undressed. Maybe I should state here what I look for when I seek out porn images. By far, what I find most enticing are photographs of a single undressed woman who appears as if she is enjoying presenting her beauty to whoever sees it. (I use the word "it" because I'm not looking to see a unique personality, rather I'm seeking the pleasurable experience of viewing what I might perhaps refer to a the "generic female form"). I personally stay away from the kind of material that seems to make up the lion's share of porn these days - i.e I'm repulsed by "hard core porn" and also most of what is called "soft core" - e.g. when the form of more than one person is presented together. When I was in 1st grade there was an older girl who lived close by and she would often show her body to me. This produced sensations in me which I think likely are associated with the kind of porn that is so "compelling" to me. I think one important difference between my wife and what I sense when I look at porn is what I sense about how "the woman" appears to view her own sexuality. Now, I want to be clear that I am not here complaining about my wife at all. I love her very, very, very much - and we have been married now for just about 35 years. I desire to look at my wife's unclothed body much more than I desire to view the kind of pictures being discussed here, however she is a very busy woman and she doesn't seem to desire to show her beauty to me nearly as much as I desire to enjoy looking at her. Unfortunately I sometimes turn to look at porn when I know my wife is simply not available. Now as to why I don't always seem to be capable to just forgo the enjoyment associated with looking at the female form during times when my wife is not available -- well that is an excellent question, and I suppose the answer must of necessity involve the fact that I am not as much of an honorable man as I wish I were. I think sometimes especially Christian women seem to act as if it would not be a good thing to openly enjoy seeking their husbands for enjoyment of sexual activity especially as that involves giving him an extended gift of being able to view her own unique beauty. I use the word "unique" because for me anyway, I see my wife as the unique real woman in my life (as compared with other women who pose for only photographic images I view simply as generic depictions of female form). It's interesting to note that I can view a single photograph for as long as I want, but my wife has other things that she needs to do and she needs to "move on". Sorry if a lot of this has been "off subject" somewhat. I think another point I should have mentioned about the "compelling" aspect of porn, is really one of the most compelling aspects of sexuality in general (for me anyway) - that being a shelter from the storms of stress. When I am sexually aroused anything else in my life that has been bothering me is simply shut out of the picture. Maybe alcohol does this for other people - actually I have never really been intoxicated so I don't know if it would for me. I have always associated the beauty of "female" with sexual arousal, and sexual arousal with escape from tension and stress. So "beauty " to me has been associated with both female and stress relief - and I have always felt God to be the one who gives beauty ... so in some strange way maybe I have never really understood how God could be against the beauty associated with what I have seen in photographs of the female form (where the "female form" I consider to be one of God's greatest creative work of beauty). OK - I guess that's it for now. Sorry if I have meandered too much, and like I say I don't really know if my experiences and observations relate at all with other people's. -Dennis Last edited on Sat Apr 25th, 2009 09:07 pm by dennis1soil |
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 03:33 am |
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dennis1soil Member
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Denise11 wrote:
A. Well, there are other things forbidden but I haven't felt they would be exciting to do. A. I've never consciously felt that my looking at photos of shapely nude female bodies was somehow me looking for my fantasy woman. Actually, ever since I started dating my wife I have felt certain I have found her. The enjoyment I have experienced while looking at the photos I have always believed to be simply the way a male body reacts to seeing the shape of a female body. That feeling is multiplied many times over when the specific shape is my wife - and many times more if I sense she is enjoying what the gift of herself is doing to me. What I'm looking for when I seek photos of any tastefully presented female form is that "feeling" and the cessation of other concerns ... interestingly enough one of those other concerns is guilt, and unfortunately getting the relief from guilt by viewing porn eventually brings on even more guilt. A. Watching some other couple pretend to do the act itself has never been something I was personally all that interested in - unless that was the only way available I could get a view of the female form which is what I was seeking.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 10:34 am |
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john Administrator
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You have gotten some other very good personal descriptions as well. I thought I'd chime in as well. The most common misconception about porn/sex addiction is that it is about the sex. It's not even about the beautiful images. Rather, it is about attempting to meet legitimate emotional needs illegitimately. In every single instance of sexual addiction, the addict began at some point in their life to use sexual release and the assocciated mood-altering effects as a coping mechanism. Then through time and repitition, this behavior becomes ingrained and very difficult to change without help. I have describe sexual addiction as a relational/emotional disorder. It is a poor behavioral expression of relational shallowness and emotional immaturity. The object of the addiction, as mentioned by others, could be any number of things: alcohol, drugs, gambling, even food. In all of these cases the addiction is not about the object itself, but about the underlying issues that must be dealt with in a healthy manner. Having said that, I would like to express my deep sympathy to you for your husbands behavior. It is not your fault and cannot be healed by you. He must come to the place where he wants to change and seek out the help he needs.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 07:56 pm |
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dennis1soil Member
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john wrote: In every single instance of sexual addiction, the addict began at some point in their life to use sexual release and the assocciated mood-altering effects as a coping mechanism. Denise, I hope you don't mind me asking John a couple of follow-up questions in this thread - I think the main question I have is still along the lines of what you are trying to gain better understanding about : John, What specifically is the addict who uses porn trying to cope with? I want to know because I think if you can give us some examples of the things we sex addicts need coping mechanisms for, that information might help both Denise come to the understanding she seeks, and I'm also selfishly wanting to see how I personally fit into your "in every single instance" phrase. I'm listening but it is kind of tough when I have just been labeled as being relationally shallow and emotionally immature. (Denise - maybe one of the reasons you can't trust your husband to tell you the truth could be because he is so ashamed he just can't bear for you to know the real truth - that is if he even knows it himself). It's massively humbling for me to know the one I care about most is aware of what I am most ashamed of, some of us have lied in hopes of mitigating how poorly our wives may view our worth and/or dignity. John, I'm not saying I disagree with the way you characterize me. Perhaps the knowledge that others will view us in ways like that if they ever learn of our "problem" may be a factor in keeping our problem a secret. After all who wants to be thought of that way - so I'll do everything I can to try to make sure as few people as possible know how needing I really am. For me, probably the hardest thing about being a sex addict is wondering if my wife looks at me as some type of moral cripple who perhaps could be healed by Jesus if I would only just be willing. Either I am such a good liar that I have fooled myself or it's really not enough just to be willing and let Jesus do all the hard work. I must do a lot of hard work myself - and the next question is: Once I no longer use porn to cope - How then will I cope with "that issue"? -Dennis Last edited on Sun Apr 26th, 2009 10:34 pm by dennis1soil |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28th, 2009 07:26 pm |
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7th Post |
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Denise11 Member
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TM2 wrote: Any addiction looks pretty incomprehensible to those outside, doesn't it? The joy of drinking until you black out and vomit and awaken with a pounding headache is what, again? Spending $8000 in an evening on crack was better than using it on a 2-month holiday in France for what reason, exactly? I don't think this question is unique to our addiction. Tim, thanks for sharing. I wanted to address where you said you *hide behind a rational and asexual persona.* because my husband is somewhat like that. Not asexual, but very unagressive sexually, and an extremely rational person. But what he was viewing was made him seem like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. When I saw what he was looking at (morbid curiosity) I was shocked, and I wondered who was this man I've been living with for 20+ years! I would like to know if this makes sense since my topic is why, why do men view porn, could it be that a man could view porn out of shear rebellion against his wife? I came from two previous marriages where porn destroyed both marriages and when I married my current husband I was overly cautious about what he took in with his eyes. This included TV, movies, commercials, etc., and I would react when he didn't turn away. He said through the years he felt like a repressed five year old so he rebelled and turned to porn. I originally thought that was a lame excuse but I wonder if I oppressed him so much that he just actually did it out of rebellion and resentment against me, (all the while enjoying it he admits). Also I am an addict myself, to cigarettes. I hid this from him for years when I knew we had severe marital issues, couldn't pin point it, but that was my relief, going back to smoking secretly after having quit for 4 years.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28th, 2009 07:40 pm |
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8th Post |
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Denise11 Member
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dennis1soil wrote: Hi Dennis1soil, I have always believed though, since I was first damaged by porn over 30 years ago that a husband shouldn't *uncover the nakedness* of any other woman besides his wife and visa versa. It's just something I've always been convicted of and now that I'm a Christian even more convicted. I have my own sins though so I can't cast any stones. I so appreciate your sincere response.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28th, 2009 07:51 pm |
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9th Post |
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Denise11 Member
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john wrote: Thanks John for your response. I agree it shows immaturity to use porn and *m* when there's a wife for that purpose. When I discovered my husbands use of porn and *m* I thought of him as an adolescent boy struggling out of control. It really changed my whole view of him. Once my prince, but now a stranger and I guess I've lumped him in with the rest of my past *losers* and he hates that. He wants desperately to fix that image he's given me of himself and be *my hero* again. He is seeking help, we're going to counseling, he's trying to allow God to intervene, he's praying, he has sobbed endlessly over how he's hurt me. He truly seems repentant. This might sound strange but as Dennis said he wonders if his wife looks at him as a moral cripple and she wants Jesus to heal him... I don't look at my husband as a moral cripple, maybe morally damaged, but if I had to endure this pain and trauma to lead my husband to faith in Christ, it would be worth it. If not, then it was all in vain.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28th, 2009 09:01 pm |
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TM2 Member
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Denise11 wrote: I would like to know if this makes sense since my topic is why, why do men view porn, could it be that a man could view porn out of shear rebellion against his wife? I came from two previous marriages where porn destroyed both marriages and when I married my current husband I was overly cautious about what he took in with his eyes. This included TV, movies, commercials, etc., and I would react when he didn't turn away. He said through the years he felt like a repressed five year old so he rebelled and turned to porn. I originally thought that was a lame excuse but I wonder if I oppressed him so much that he just actually did it out of rebellion and resentment against me, (all the while enjoying it he admits).That's outside my direct experience. Two possible comments, though: (1) Suggesting that you caused his addiction by oppressing him is, I think, giving yourself more power and responsibility than you have. If that idea came from him, then it's time for him to take responsibility for his own actions. If it came from you, then it's time to stop blaming yourself for somebody else's addiction. (2) You didn't repress him as a 5 year old (I assume). It sounds as though he was pretty repressed when you met (as I was and am). If you're the adventurous one and he's timid, then you've repressed him how? Again, I think you're deluding yourself about what's your stuff and what's his. Of course, I could be totally wrong, but addiction because of rebellion sounds like blame shifting to me. Tim M.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2009 12:20 am |
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Denise11 Member
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He is blaming me for making him feel repressed but he does take total responsibility for his actions in how he reacted to feeling repressed. He said since he felt I was repressing him with what was acceptable viewing with TV, movies, etc., he should have instead stood up to me and assured me that he was in control. He doesn't blame me for his turning to porn, only feeling repressed with what he was *allowed* to watch. Does that make sense? I did repress him in only that one way though. As I said I would react negatively if he didn't turn away from anything provocative he saw in the media. I was adventurous, although that stopped years ago when I began to resent him, along with relations all together for about 8 months last year. The most adventurous he could get was to have relations in a different room in the house. (Sorry but that's not what I had in mind). Even after we have rekindled our intimacy in the past few months, he is still intimidated by any sexual suggestions which surprises me considering what he has been watching in porn. What's the deal? How can one watch such provocative stuff in porn and not be able to be in the least bit aggressive or adventurous in sexual relations? Last edited on Wed Apr 29th, 2009 01:23 pm by Denise11 |
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2009 08:40 am |
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TM2 Member
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This is turning into a more personal conversation than I'm comfortable with. I'll reply this time, but then I need to bow out of it. You ask a bunch of questions that might be interesting to explore with him, or with him and a counselor. On TV and film, I need for myself to be quite restrictive about what I watch. Much that is harmless to others is too triggering to me. My advice to any addict would be never to assume that what is harmless to non-addicts is harmless to us. Do whatever you need to do in order to stay sober. Personally I don't own a television and I see about one movie every 10 years, but those are personal choices only partly related to my addiction. For non-addicts, I don't have any particular advice about what to watch. I can only speak as an addict to addicts. I also don't have advice to partners about what boundaries to set for their addicts. I'm not a partner of an addict. I do believe that any addict who believes he can watch anything he chooses to watch as long as it doesn't meet some societally-defined definition of P is standing into danger. For me, as I've said in another thread there has always been a pretty sharp distinction between real life and the world of fantasy. I'm not willing to speculate about how that might play out for anyone else, though; and as a sex addict in a room full of sex addicts, I can't usefully and safely offer advice on anyone else's private practices. Following up with him and with a psychological professional might be useful, though. Tim M. Last edited on Wed Apr 29th, 2009 12:06 pm by TM2 |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30th, 2009 03:15 am |
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dennis1soil Member
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Denise11 wrote: ... Hi again Denise, Sorry, but earlier I guess I kind of blew off your question about "forbidden" and "exciting", but I'll try to get serious about it now. I don't know for certain, but it's possible some of what I'll talk about could be interpreted by moderators at being too close to limits this forum seems to have in regard to mentioning personal views concerning Biblical teachings - so I'll understand if this post doesn't stay around very long. However, I'm pretty much desperately desiring feedback on some concepts that have really troubled me so I'll forge ahead and spend the time writing anyway - Im hoping in the process you may receive some things to think about as I at least attempt to address in a more respectful manner your very good question. Speaking in regard to my own personal situation, I think one of the reasons for the compulsive nature of my addiction may be because during several early years in my life I experienced EXTREME desire for something about which I simply could never understand why others considered so terribly wrong. Specifically, I wanted to see photos of the Playboy centerfold type, yet I knew if those I admired most knew I even desired that - then they would consider me in a bad manner, and I ALSO desperately desired, with perhaps the same degree of Extremity, to be thought of as being a good and righteous guy. Since for a long hard time I did go without fulling my strong desire to look at nude photos (all the while wanting to so much), when I did actually give in and put at risk my contrary desire (i.e. to be thought of as a righteous guy) - it seems I just could not stop doing the forbidden thing. Note here that I never did really buy in to the idea that I should be completely forbidden (I thought I could handle it even though I knew nobody else would ever agree), however I wanted to appear as if I genuinely agreed. You have wondered if maybe your husband might have viewed porn as an act of rebellion toward you - in my case I think it's possible that I have viewed porn in part as an act of rebellion against God. I mentioned I personally was not convinced that the stance taken by others in my family and church were correct - they attributed their views as being absolutely clearly stated by God in the Bible. In my view however there has always seemed to be much missing in the Bible if in fact their view is correct. For instance, though apparently Solomon was used by God to the book in the Bible which perhaps addresses sexuality in the most positive way, I find it interesting that the Bible does not say more negative things about him in regard to his many sexual partners (the Bible does say God was upset with Solomon because he married women who did not share his faith and who turned his heart away from God, however it doesn't say anything about Solomon being guilty of adultery or adulterous thoughts - I assume because he must not have "looked upon" the wife of anyone else - though he certainly looked upon many different women). Now, I'm not trying to say I really still think it's OK for me to look at porn - actually I am an addict - and the compulsive aspect of addition has made me a slave to something other than God's intent for me - so it is clear that I sin when looking at porn (of course I can also refer to the heartbreaks my wife has endured, and the terrible things which so often happen to women "in the business" - hearing some of their testimonies shows that almost with out exception there are very negative effects on them as well). If God does in fact really care for me, I understand why he would want to keep me away from porn, certainly being an addict to anything is not a happy way to live, I have missed out on so many good things because I didn't follow the maxim that for some things, less is more. If I could have just contented myself with seeing my wife's unclothed body for maybe up to an hour and a half a couple of times a week, now looking back I understand I would have been much better off --- but I felt I had to experience those chemicals in my body more often, and I've missed a bunch of other really good experiences (including more admiration from my wife). I suppose one could speculate that your husband was not as convinced as you were about the bad effects of him watching some things in the media - but if that was a big deal to him, it's not your fault for the way he reacted, he could have spoken to you about his reservations about how you were saying he should act. (Just like it's not God's fault if I reacted against Him - just because I don't understand His book the same way most other people do, does not mean I can just ignore how their views - on occasion I have actually been wrong while someone else was right!). Well, sorry again about rambling on too much. Wrap up thoughts: If we don't understand and or willing accept being constrained from something we desire very, very much - perhaps eventually if we do actually get access to what we wanted so much we can be obsessed with what we may feel we were unjustly denied earlier. I think the apostle Paul may have spoken about "the law" in a way perhaps similar in some ways to this concept. If I remember offhand correctly... something to the effect that the power of sin is the law (at least when it is seen in the negative light of keeping us from doing something we really want to do). Maybe the "law" against lust would not have ended up giving sin power in my life, if I could have seen the prohibition as actually being a good thing which would make it easier for me to be more sexually content while living with only one sexual partner who very legitimately has other things to do besides showing her body to me (even a tenth as much as I'd like). P.S. Here's one more thought that hit me after I closed an earlier post about regrets I have had relating to my behavior as an addict. Maybe the absolute worst effect of my using porn has been how my wife has had to endure thinking that somehow I compare her with photographs of other women and find her less attractive. It breaks my heart to know her heart has been broken, and by something having not a shred of truth to it. That's the kind of sick stuff that makes me hate this world and look forward to when we can both be in heaven and know each other more accurately. The Bible says we will know Him as we are now known by Him -- I'm hoping my wife will know how I really feel about her. -Dennis (I have run out of time, sorry but I can't do much editing)
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30th, 2009 06:14 pm |
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Denise11 Member
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Dennis, thanks for your response. You put things into words better than I could have. When you speak about what the Apostle Paul said, that the very thing he didn't want to do, he did, going against the law, that's exactly why I asked the question of whether or not my forbidding my husband to view provocative material made him do that very thing. I'm not blaming myself for him doing that, it just seems that human rebellion kicks in when we know we shouldn't do certain things or if someone is forbidding you to do it whether it be God or spouse. It's funny he said he didn't feel any guilt about it before he was caught, he didn't think it was a big deal. After he was caught, he was ashamed, embarrassed, and did feel guilty because he was exposed and it made him look bad to me and the hurt it caused me was devastating to him. My husband on the outside seems a very righteous man, and everyone always thought so, now he hates the way I look at him and feels ashamed. I often wondered if I hadn't been so restrictive and adamant about him not viewing provocative stuff just in the normal media if he would have turned to porn. I guess I shouldn't speculate, or wonder, it leaves me feeling lost. I should just get my own act together and not let this run my life. It has affected every aspect of my life for 7 months now and I'm just growing so tired of it. It's like his obsession with porn has turned out to be my own obession with his obsession. If that makes sense. Argh, the shear frustration that this had to enter our lives.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30th, 2009 08:26 pm |
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truthseeker Administrator 
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Hi Denise, Yes, though you will probably retain a certain degree of guardedness for a while, it may be time to refocus on the things that initially drew you to one another, and/or explore some new hobby or activity together. And, of course, growing together in faith is always important. Praying for you both... TruthSeeker
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| Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 02:39 pm |
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16th Post |
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dennis1soil Member
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One thing I have never understood - but for which I think there is probably evidence - relating more toward the being addicted aspect of porn viewing (rather than the initial draw) - is related to the concept of Shame. I find interesting that so many otherwise apparently righteous guys still have a problem with porn. People who very much want to be good are the one's who feel shame when we either think we are not being good, or we feel others see us as not being good. Back quite a while I was coming to this site pretty frequently and I listened to a sermon which I think was suggested by someone here (maybe you truthseeker?) - Dr Irwin Lutzer of Moody Bible Church spoke about keeping ourselves pure, and in relation to parents attempting to keep their sons away from porn he gave a quick warning about not causing too much shame to them (if they were caught) - and if I understood correctly, I think he was saying too much shame can fuel addiction. I have heard other people who write about the porn problem mention similar things, but I have never heard anyone help me understand where the line is between what is appropriate shame and the circumstances where a particular type of shame that can be used (by the devil?) to fuel addiction. If anyone knows of a good source where this shame thing is discussed, I'd appreciate being directed to it. Denise, if this subject has consumed so much of your attention for so long, my advice to you is to "let it drop" - let God work with it a while. I mentioned Solomon in an earlier post, maybe he is only one example of many, many men throughout history who have had problems in the area of sexuality. If I read the Bible correctly (Warning! my interpretations have been questioned!) there is a place in the New Testament where Paul indicates sexuality in marriage can help to reduce the lure of it elsewhere, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it would place a big burden on a spouse because their partner has and/or is sinning -- sin is something for which each person answers directly to God. If I ever get the feeling my wife is wanting to be the one to demand an account of me (not that she actually has, but in times where I thought it might be coming to that), I have felt resentment rising - it would seem as if she didn't trust God to hold me accountable. If she wanted to assume the place of God, well, I guess I might think, it's a whole lot easier to hide actions from my wife than to be primarily concerned about God. Here is what comes to my mind after writing the last three paragraphs: Paul contrasted the bondage of the law with the freedom that comes through Grace. I think a couple of key differences were the understanding that God has forgiven us and because of Jesus He declares us to be righteous (even though we are not yet the way he sees us). Sorry if some of this has not been very helpful - the main subject I wanted to bring up is "Shame" - I certainly don't completely understand it's role in addictive behavior, and maybe that means you shouldn't take very seriously the previous few paragraphs (after all, they come from someone who is an addict himself --- But ... I've been forgiven by God and my wife! ... and in important ways they both already see me as righteous!). -Dennis Last edited on Fri May 1st, 2009 02:42 pm by dennis1soil |
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| Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 04:14 pm |
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truthseeker Administrator
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Hi Dennis, I believe that you are speaking about the difference between conviction of the Holy Spirit and the condemnation of Satan. The conviction of the Holy Spirit will hopefully lead us toward confession and repentance, resulting in forgiveness and cleansing, as spoken of in 1 John 1:9. When salvation has taken place, especially when followed with repentance for specific sins, Rom. 8:1 assures us that any condemnation from Satan is a lie. Now if we are saved, but persist in rebellion in one or more areas, that conviction of the Holy Spirit may feel more like condemnation or shame, but it is still trying to urge us to repent and reach out for cleansing, not battering us with the message that we have gone too far and are hopeless. The other aspect of shame is that inflicted on us from other sinful human beings. It is especially painful when we know that God has forgiven us, but a loved one continues to cling to their unforgiveness. To give spouses the necessary foundation to heal, however, it is completely reasonable that actions must back up the words, (true repentance, not just confession,) so it is important to distinguish between appropriate anticipation of accountability and unforgiveness. Hope that made some sense. :-) TruthSeeker
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| Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 04:37 pm |
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18th Post |
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TM2 Member
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People in psychology/addiction circles often make a distinction between guilt, which is a negative feeling about what I have done, and shame, which is a negative feeling about who I am. Guilt is often appropriate - I need to feel sorrow over wrong actions and to try to make amends for them. I'm not sure that shame is ever appropriate. What I have done has often been deplorable, but who I am is a child of the most high God, His handiwork, beloved by Him. What I do is often not successful, but each day I am doing the best I can. I think that the moment I go into shame - see, I'm a terrible person who always has and always will hurt everyone around me - I'm instantly setting myself up to run from those unfixable feelings by acting out in my addiction. The loop of acting out, feeling shame, then running from and medicating those feeling by acting out again is a big piece of the whole addictive picture. Self-condemnation feeds the addictive drive with the energy it needs in order to continue. This is why I think it is so critical to step away from shame and from hatred/condemnation of self if we are to find love and healing. Just how it seems to me, of course. Tim M.
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| Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 05:55 pm |
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19th Post |
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dennis1soil Member
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TM2 wrote: ... Thanks, Tim M. Yes I have lived through what you describe. I can see why some Bible statements are powerful, like: - There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. but here is one that's still sort of a mystery to me : - All things are lawful to me but not all things are expedient. (sorry, I'm just going by memory since I need to quickly get back to work, so the actual wording may be wrong and of course probably varies based on translation) Now, here's a weird thought - it almost seems like: if I did not feel so bad about sinning, I would not be as likely to go back to sin to try to make me feel better. just thinking, -Dennis
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| Posted: Fri May 1st, 2009 07:19 pm |
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20th Post |
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Denise11 Member
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"Denise, if this subject has consumed so much of your attention for so long, my advice to you is to "let it drop" - let God work with it a while." I want to do just that. I sincerely do. Could it cause resentment in my husband the longer I hold on to this junk? The pain, the lack of trust in him,? Secondly, how does one "let go and let God"? I've heard that as a Christian expression for so long and being a Christian for 17 years you would figure I would know how, but I don't. How do I let God work with it a while? Just focus on something else. I know in Philipians it says, "... whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." I certainly haven't been doing that, but only focusing on the negative and how to check things to make sure he's not doing anything anymore. We have spoken with a Pastor twice for this problem and with a marriage counselor once and will continue with that, Lord willing. My husband is also seeking the Lord in all of this, going to church now and actually being moved to tears during sermons. He saw a passion play on Easter and cried at the crucifixion. He seems to be sincerely trying and I feel my not letting go is going to show him the wrong idea of forgiveness and grace. I don't want to hinder him coming to faith in the Lord so I know I need to stop and just rest with the fact that I can't control my husband and that I should place him in the hands of the Lord, for Him to watchover, not me. Maybe I just answered my own question as to let go and let God.
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