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Hisheart
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 02:21 pm |
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This is a thread where men and women in different places in their growth, can ask questions and gain wisdom on different issues. Rather than one specific issue at the start of the thread. I am hoping for ongoing discussions. I will start with a question. Men, when do you see the point of no return in regards to having to act out? What I mean by acting out is having to have completion in some way. This could be M. or it could be finding a prostute, etc. God says with temptation there will always be a way out. Is there a point in the process where it is too late to turn back so to speak? When it goes past the point of seeing a temptation, or a thought coming into the mind, and moves to plotting or planning a way to see more, or act out more, or whatever, is this a time that is past the point of no return, or not?
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 11:28 pm |
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For me the point of no return was actually a place of no return. It was my heart. I finally admitted and realized that I really enjoyed the pleasure(s) of my sin(s). I purposefully chose to give in because I was attracted time and again to the bodily pleasures that I knew existed on the other side of sinning.
I would resist and resist and finally give in over and over and over for years and years. It got to the point where I just put the guilt and shame on some far away shelf in the back ground and gave in whenever I wanted to. I kept wondering when, how, if, why, where God was going to deliver me.
I knew and yet, I didn't know in some strange way, that the choice was really mine all along. I chose to sin because I liked the sin. I liked it more than I liked God and proved that to myself again and again and again. It wasn't until I realized that I truly liked (loved) something that killed my Savior and begged God to show me how he saw my sin. Only then, when I began to truly see it for the wicked, evilness that it is, did I find repugnence to something that I formerly loved. From inside my inner being finally I hated sin instead of loved it. I do not like or love sexual sin any more. It has none of the attraction of those many years and countless, hopeless desperations. It is not attractive. And it really shouldn't be attractive to a Christian.
Attraction to sin is being tempted when a person's lust entices them.
Allowing God to place a disgust for the pleasures of lust in our hearts will end the tyranny of lust. Lust has no place in the Kingdom of Heaven and God did not invent it. It is a by-product of vain imaginations and requires vanity to keep it fueled.
If you kill the root, the point of no return is never reached. It can't be reached, it is too horrible to think of. And that is what sin should really be: too horrible to think of. This is the point where thoughts are never entertained anymore. It is easy to resist because the thoughts take on the state of foreign matter. The pre-cursor tuggings of lust become irritants, something not desired or wanted.
When you reach the point of no longer desiring lust, it flees from you.
This is my testimony.
WV
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Hisheart
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 12:19 am |
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k you so much. That was a very powerful response. I think the truth of your statements is what makes it all so painful for us wives. We come to the place of realizing that our husbands really don't love us when they are plotting and planning ways to deceive us. But it's even harder to face where their walk with God is. It is so hard to watch the one you love so much, who you are yoked to as one, seep deeper and deeper into darkness with a seeming closedness to the truth.
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 01:57 am |
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The spouses must come to realize that God also suffers being ignored and cheated on and thought so little of. The truth is that the men in one sense think only of themselves (in varying degrees), and in another sense are careless with their own souls. When we are deep in repetitive sin, we are in part molesting ourselves, caring little for our eternal soul which we place a value on as being worth wallowing in the pig trough. Men often see themselves and treat themselves as animals.
If you have little respect for God, and little respect for yourself, where does the spouse fit in?
Love for God is the key. Loving God first and foremost will cause the soul to walk uprightly.
WV
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sam
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 09:55 am |
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i know this was a question for men, so i won't get involved in it, but i just had to say something. wv, your statement here - "It wasn't until I realized that I truly liked (loved) something that killed my Savior and begged God to show me how he saw my sin. Only then, when I began to truly see it for the wicked, evilness that it is, did I find repugnence to something that I formerly loved." oh goodness, just reading that is somehow eye opening. i mean, of course we already know that our sin was placed on jesus at the cross and every time we give in, we are hurling more on him, but reading those words, i don't know, it just kinda moved me. thanks for that.
sam
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 03:03 pm |
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Sam:
I am so thankful that this helped you. Just two days ago I ran across the scripture (which I'd seen and understood before - but this time it meant even more than ever): Prov. 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
I thought of all the times I asked God, and of all the times I've heard people in bondage ask God: "How?" "How can I break free from this God?" "How will I ever get out of this cycle, this bondage, this prison, this sickness of my mind and heart?"
To understand how - to have the wisdom how - we must regain the fear of the Lord.
Even David said in Psalms 36: "The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart [I have come to understand], that there is no fear of God before his eyes."
And in Psalms 119: "My flesh trembleth for fear of Thee; and I am afraid of Thy judgments."
Provs. 1:7 says: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
And yet we know by Isa.11, that Jesus also possessed the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord, and a quick understanding in the Fear of the Lord. And in Isa.33 it says ". . . the Fear of the Lord is his treasure."
So the Fear of God runs the entire spectrum of respect. From having perfect Faith and showing deep Love and respect - respect unto obedience - - to having belief and yet the thought of committing a sin causes a trembling to come over the soul. From having so much respect as to never want to offend or displease God in any way - "without Faith, it is impossible to please God," - to fearing the consequences of sin so much as to never do it - believing full well that God is not mocked.
Such is the wide spectrum of the fear of the Lord, from confident and loving childlike Faith to the quaking fear of judgment. How beautiful to live in obedience toward the range of the spectrum that is obeying out of the adoration of the heart!! To adore and respect and treasure God so much as to never set foot into that which offends Him greatly and he considers an abomination. To walk never wanting to hurt or displease God.
But how can we walk in such a deep Faith, if we continually enter into our sins suspending the fear of God just long enough to get through the sinful act so that we can enjoy the pleasure of sin before we choose to repent again? Is this Faith or disloyalty? When we ignore the fear of the Lord again and again, in those moments, minutes, hours, days that we choose to give over to sin - we weaken our senses to the fear of God and little by little weaken our conscience. We weaken our defenses against sin and loose our way out.
We should cling to the fear of God as the very root of our understanding and wisdom that we need to get free. It is a tremendous defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. And once we get back to the point of a trembling fear of sinning and displeasing God, we can move on to the point of respectful and loving obedience. And that should be the goal that leads us through those fiery gates of repentance unto mercy. That we seek above all else to find the Love for God. The Love that is stronger than the deadly pull of sin.
Remember, the Children of Israel were led out of Egypt by tremendous miracles only to fall back into sin because of: unbelief. That story is repeated throughout the bible as Paul says: for an example to us [Christians], in 1Cor.10 "But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted." and again in Hebs.3 and 4 "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. . . Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. . . Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."
God bless you Sam in your journey to seek the Face of God. Be converted as Peter commanded of us.
In Christ,
Wilderness Voice
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Hisheart
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 07:37 pm |
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Wow! WV you have summed up precisely why I am in such fear for my husband. He has been going to a deliverance minister who really scratches his itching ears. This man has told my husband that he is what Romans 7 describes, and that as such, he has no reason to fear God. God will deliver him when the time is right, and until then, just try to love God. Or something like that. I used to go with him to this teacher, and one day my husband read out of his bible the verse that says neither adulterers,etc....will inherit the kingdom of God. After he read this, he said nothing, but the deliverance minister piped in and said that's doctinal error. Just from reading the scripture. He explained that that doesn't include people in my husband's kind of bondage. He has fallen harder since he has been going to this man, and instead of seeing the fruit in his lig=fe from this teaching, his minister has told him that it always looks worse before it gets better, so even though he is sinning worse, he is actually getting better. I have been praying and really digging into the Word to keep myself from deception. I have tried to gently speak truth to my husband, but he has decided that the only one he trusts is this man who teaches him false doctrine. Please pray for him, and if you have any advice for me, I would love it. Also, I was wondering if you would mind if I copied and posted one of your posts on here, on a different forum.
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guitarist63
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 08:30 pm |
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The phrase "point of no return" conjures up the idea for me that there is no return to God after I have sinned. Yet Christ died for me while I was still a sinner. It's not about me, it's about Him. I focus too much on myself
If by point of no return is meant the point when I sin, then the way out that God has provided has already been ignored so for that episode of sin, I have missed the opportunity to get closer to God. That does not mean I have missed future opportunities to get closer to God. He will not write me off because I fall short of the mark because He is patient and forgiving. He will not save any that He has not planned to save before the universe was born. There is no way in which I can buy salvation from God through good works or by striving not to sin because at some time in my life from the point of confessing Jesus Christ and repenting of sins, until the end of my life, I will sin. It may not be sexual - it could be any described in the Bible. I only have to sin once in my entire life to make me unfit to enter into the presence of God.
Last edited on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 08:33 pm by guitarist63
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Hisheart
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 08:38 pm |
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When I said point of no return, I meant hte point at which you are definitely going to sin. Is there a way out provided at each stage in the sin process is my question I guess.
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 08:49 pm |
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Sure, you can quote anything that I've written here on Blazing Grace.
I also bumped up a post "Sin - In all of us" in "Other Topics" on a thread that was originally started by Guitarist63 and turned out having a very good message that I think is well-related to this whole topic.
My wife and I will say a prayer for your husband. May the light of understanding flood into the interiors of his soul. May he become inflamed with a holy Love for Christ.
WV
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Last edited on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 12:21 pm by Wilderness Voice
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guitarist63
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 08:52 pm |
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Hisheart,
Yes, God will provide me with all I need to escape sin. Stages - I don't see that sin has stages. There is temptation which either breeds desire or is ignored and/ or rebuked with or without scripture which is my offensive weapon against the devil's temptations. I will rebuke the devil when I'm tempted and will quote scripture as my offensive weapon.
Sometimes I don't choose to do that. I am not 100% consistent in my reactions. Sin in my experience happens very quickly and unless I have a plan prior to any temptation how I will react when tempted in that way, I will not be able always to ignore the temptation. Sometimes when I have a plan, however, I may not choose to make use of it to avoid the sin.
I hope this makes it clearer how I react.
Last edited on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 08:54 pm by guitarist63
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Hisheart
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 07:21 pm |
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WV thank you so much for your prayers! Thank your wife too!I appreciate so much your united prayers. Your wife's wisdom would be much appreciated on here as well. I am sure that she would have much wisdom for us.
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Hisheart
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 08:25 pm |
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Thank you Guitarist. I was trying to understand the mindset a bit. I have always seen being blindsided by something or someone unanticipated as a very different thing, than plotting or seeking. Does this make sense? So I was wondering if someone were in the stage of plotting, planning, or seeking any sort of lustful enticement, would it be too late to refrain before finding some kind of completion?
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guitarist63
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 09:49 pm |
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Hisheart, thank you. I think that God would intervene in some way at the stages you mention. That intervention would take many forms. Yes, it would be possible for the person to retreat and flee. To use a military analogy - if you engage the enemy in battle, or even if you choose to have a truce and shake hands with him, you can at the drop of a hat choose to change your mind and retreat. But it depends where you are, what kind of battlefield you have, whether you are facing the enemy one direction and behind you is a bog, a mire. Of course, if you are in the enemy camp with a flag of truce, to turn round and flee would almost certainly end in death or capture. So depending on how advanced one is in the stages leading to a sinful act, one may retreat.
I suppose at any point, it is never too late with sexual sin (or any sin) to turn about face and walk in the opposite direction. If one was half way through something sexually sinful and decided to stop doing that, one can stop and flee from that situation. One has already sinned but one can still stop doing it, with prayer and determination. With God's help, of course. What can we do without Him? Nothing.
Last edited on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 09:53 pm by guitarist63
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