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TK
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 11:32 pm |
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| I read a book about how to never be lied to again...I think this may have worsen my situation with my guy. Now, each time I ask him questions, I look for cues to see if he is lying to me. He is in recovery now and says he has be "sober", if u will, since New Year's Day. He is working a Godly program and keeping track and staying loyal to working it each and every day. However, I still can't get past the trust issues I have with him. He has told me so many times before that he has stopped all his "adult stuff", for lack of a better term, only to find out later that he is just as involved in it as he ever was. I want so much to believe him, but I don't want to be hurt again. I would rather him tell me the truth about what he is doing, then to catch him lying about it later. Right now he is living with my little brother (26) and my brother has girls over every day doing everything you can possible imagine that could cause my guy to relapse. However, my brother's perspective is that my guy has no problem, he's just a guy and "needs to get laid". My guy says nothing to him or even leave the house when stuff is going on and it has me worried that maybe he is enjoying hearing the action in the next room and masturbating in his own room, or surfing for videos to match pictures to what he's hearing from my brother's room. Either way, I'm not comfortable with the situation, but there seems to be no solution at this time to change it, other than him just leaving when my brother has company. But even with that, he always has an excuse why he can't leave, while I'm left thinking the worse and believing maybe he really doesn't want to leave. My brother has to live there for now, since he has no job and I can't afford two separate places for each him and my guy. I live on a base and neither can live with me due to the "Rules". That's a long story and not relevant to this situation anyways. Anyways, I'm looking for support and understanding to what I'm experiencing. I just want to know I'm not the only one that has these types of trust issues and that its not all me.
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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jjules
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 06:43 am |
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i can certainly identify. my husband flatly lied to me just days ago. when they lie they are still protecting the problem. ... they also are not walking with God as they should you know that because God cannot lie. lying is disrespectful, kills trust, erodes relationships- it will drive you to insanity with paranoia and what-ifs?!
here is the strategy -
Trust in the Lord with all your heart !
men will always disappoint. you have to lay all your worries at Gods feet He can be trusted, he can be relied on. pray your man will be exposed - and then let God move in the situation. pray your man will be convicted - and the let God move on his heart.
i cannot trust my husband as far as i can kick him, but God is faithful, God is full of grace and mercy. he showed me and put in my heart a few times when my husband was lying and leaving out details, only giving me half truths.
let go of control. you cannot make one thing happen to change your man but pray and leave it with God Almighty, only he can change the hearts of men.
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TK
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 09:39 am |
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jjules,
Thanks you for your reply. I will definitely follow those steps you suggested. And I am really glad to know someone understands this frustration. As I read your post, it reminded me of the story about the child offering her/his father to fix her/his toy, only to keep pestering him and not allowing her/his father time to fix the toy. I do need to surrender my guy to God and myself too, for that matter, and let go and allow him to fix us...and stop pestering Him (God) by trying to take control of the situation. Thank you for your help and support! 
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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P2J
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 10:09 am |
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Don’t know whether this will help but I’d like to offer my take on why men lie about this issue.
In the BG home page there’s a link to some info by Mike Genung… In general terms, the average male from puberty to his early 20’s will experience between 2,000 to 7,000 sexual climaxes and, each one is about 4 times stronger than a shot of morphine. Real sexual encounters and natural nocturnal emissions would hardly register against those numbers for the average youth. It’s no wonder we’re all addicted to some degree by the time we reach 20. (I think I was addicted before I turned 16).
By the time we reach our 20’s we intuitively know something’s wrong about the compulsion but unless we’ve joined an addiction recovery group we will have no idea what it is. Then we try to rationalize it believing that is just a part of our nature, it’s normal, every one does it, it’s ok and so on.
Then some one preaches God to us and shoots down our rationalizations. We’re left with the sin Jesus died to remove still crawling all over us so we conceal it as best we can. It doesn’t matter how many times we read the bible, how many revelations we get, how much we pray or how many church programs we busy ourselves with, the trouble is we’re still addicted.
The next logical step is to sanitize our sin. That’s where marriage comes into the picture. Like a lion on the prowl we seek out a woman who we’re sure will provide free hits till one of us dies and we set about to display our best attributes to manipulate her emotions and get her to commit herself in a covenant. Then we can turn around to parents and peers with a smile that says that the sex we’ve been feeling guilty about since puberty is now perfectly legitimate. But we’re still addicted.
Once the relational fizzle has disappeared and living pressures mount we feed the addiction even more and the not so new bride senses the gap and becomes suspicious. We know that exposing the truth of our behaviour will be interpreted as an offence rather than as a sickness. Therefore we attempt to hide our secretive comforts by lying about them, appealing to the lifetime commitment she has made but it doesn’t work for long and divorce often follows.
That’s when real panic enters because it means that our broadening sexual appetites are no longer legitimate and we have to go through the difficult process of finding another woman to re-sanitize our sexuality.
Thank God for recovery
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TK
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 11:46 am |
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P2J, I appreciate your "take" on this subject of lying. However, I believe that God gave us free will and life is about choices. Every choice has a consequence and there comes a time when eventually one must stop making excuses and just be accountable and take responsibility for their choices.
I was raised in Alateen, I spent most of my life in AA and NA, and now S-Anon. I have watched and experienced addiction, and I have been addicted. I have studied Behavior Science and Psychology, since I am currently getting my degree in Psychology. And I have spent the last 8 years in therapy. So, I have a good understanding of addiction.
Through out all my experience and personal issues, I have learned a lot, yet I know I have so much more to learn. I know that although there is common ground in addiction, everyone is different and learns things in their own way and in their own time. However, I have found that no matter what the addiction or who the person, even what their past is...there are two types of people. There are victims and survivors. Despite whether you are a victim or a survivor, it is still about choices.
A person makes the choice to model a victim mentality or a survivor's mentality. Those that choose to have a victim mentality are the ones that make excuses for their actions, blame others, and sit on their pity-pots preaching or complaining about this or that. But the person that chooses to be a survivor uses their experiences to make a difference. They look for understanding, not excuses to this and that. And they don't use their "issues" or even their addiction as a crutch to avoid life's obstacles.
"Everything Happens for a Reason." That is my life's motto. I have to believe that or everything I have been through was in vain. It's by the grace of God, that I am a survivor. But I can tell you for certain that He gave me the CHOICE and the strength to be a survivor.
It is for these reasons, that I believe my guy, too, has the choice in whether he lies to me or not. The devil didn't make him do it, nor did his addiction.
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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P2J
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 09:09 pm |
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You're right TK, God did give us a free will and life was all about choices. The problem with addiction is that after it has taken hold our will is no longer free. As the saying goes... Man takes a drink, drink takes a drink, drink takes a man. Our will can only become free again when the process of escape from the addiction is complete .
A man trapped in SA is hardly capable of choosing. He might try to choose abstinence but he knows his choice will be overwhelmed by his compulsion. Lying to a spouse is also a choice but his/our ability to make the right choice is hampered by imprisonment in the addiction.
It might be a little infantile but an analogy springs to mind: Imagine placing a box of candy in your 4yo's bedroom with a stern warning that he should not eat them due to the consequences of tooth decay. The next morning you find the box empty and the residue of sticky candy all over his face and pillow. You inquire into the disappearance of the candy and his reply will likely be "A robber broke in and ate them". It's not that he doesn't respect you, he's quite aware of your ability to inflict severe punishment, rather, his crime and his attempt to conceal it both come from an immature mentality. Extrapolating to the crime of adult SA and lying to a spouse about it, you're now dealing with defective mentality due to the distortion SA produces.
Thanks for the survivor/victim picture, there's probably more to that than I understand at present so I'm looking at it through the bars on my prison window (figuratively speaking).
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TK
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 02:51 pm |
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P2J,
Thank you for your response. However, your analogy reminds me of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden when Eve was tempted by Satan, Adam took from Eve, then they suddenly they both felt naked and hid from God. That is human nature, not addiction.
And although, I have never had one of my four children disrespect me in that manner, I believe that speaks for a person's character and integrity, which can be clouded by addiction, but still always a CHOICE of FREE WILL given by our AMAZING GOD, himself, and NEVER taken by addiction or anything else for that matter.
As a person grows in understanding, they will also grow in maturity in their recovery. With that said, I wish you the best on your journey of recovery. God Bless you and be with you on that journey. He can and will give you the courage and strength you need if you only ask and believe Him for it.
"Everything Happens for a REASON!"
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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rom517mm
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:17 pm |
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My wife just "knew" I was into pornography, though I was (or so I thought) doing a pretty good job acting like a wonderful Christian. Thank God I'm not a good liar. Yes, I hated being caught, but looking back I see it was a blessing. For a while, my wife had an underlying sense that something might be wrong, and every so often she'd broach the subject ever so slightly, but I would brush it off and soon we'd move on (but the issue was always just under the surface). I thank God for her perceptiveness, that she eventually had to have it brought to the light.
Yes, man will disappoint, and God is the only one we can truly count on. But if we have to constantly second guess our mate's fidelity, how can our marriages prosper? My wife knows that lust is "every man's battle," and that it's quite likely that as long as I'm alive the image of certain women will turn me on. But she needs to know that I'm not allowing that image to become fantasy, that I won't dwell on that image but pray and ask God to turn my mind to Him.
I do believe in "woman's intuition," because I have seen it so clearly in my wife. One reason my wife discovered I was lusting again recently (she originally found out a couple years ago, early in our marriage) was because I was unable to perform sexually after she had told me of a dream she had regarding me and the internet: She dreamed God told her it would either make or break me. Well, I knew I was still looking at pornography, so I quickly deflected her comments. But I felt so convicted that I got anxious when we tried to make love. My inability to perform made her suspicious (or should I say added to her suspicion?). The truth came out again that I hadn't stopped with pornography.
On the other side of the coin, this incident led us into some deep discussion and prayer, which has resulted in me not seeking out lust for over a month. We had a few good lovemaking sessions during that time. However, last night I thought I was ready again, so we started, but my stomach started acting up and I couldn't finish. Of course my first thought was that she'd think I was masturbating again. "Why is this happening?" I asked myself. "I'm doing so well. Yes, I know I have a lot of growth remaining, but I'm absolutely not lusting. But will she believe me?" Well, she was fine. I believe she knows that deep down I'm serious about leaving that life behind. Is her perception infallible? No, but combining what perception she does have with my poor lying "skills," I would be foolish to try lusting again with 2 strikes already against me (not to mention that I would risk forfeiting a marriage to a woman whose honor, beauty, and love for me is way more than I deserve).
____________________
"Since by the one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:17)
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P2J
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 08:00 pm |
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Thanks for that rom517mm, your account is encouraging.
There's another word you might add to your complimentary description of your wife... grace.
Despite your attempts to conceal or trivialize your SA she has chosen the route of judgement and grace rather than judgement and condemnation. In my case the latter applied.
My comments in challenging TK's "free will, choices and consequences" argument is with a view to grace rather than condemnation, that the pain of being lied to might somehow be relieved and replaced with grace for the liar.
One doesn't need faith to condemn but grace for the offender is impossible without faith.
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rom517mm
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 08:07 pm |
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P2J,
Yes, grace was very much evident in my wife's response. She condemned what I was doing, but she was gracious (or merciful; those terms can get confusing) by not condemning me. In fact, she has been very encouraging and hopeful regarding my overcoming this addiction.
____________________
"Since by the one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:17)
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TK
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 06:30 am |
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rom517mm,
God has obviously blessed you with a loving wife. I did not read anywhere in which you describe your wife as judging. As for me, it is not my place to judge nor condemn. That is for God and God alone. He is a Just God. And a loving and forgiving God. I am human, just as your wife is. We each hurt from the lies told to us from those we love. I personally feel rejected or not good enough when my guy chooses porn over me. But I know forgiving him is possible. All things are possible with God. I have to trust Him, just as jjules suggested, and as God's word instructs me to do so. And it is my Faith in God, not my guy, that keeps me by his side and not running from the hurt and pain that his sexual addiction or even my addiction or our issues has cause. And as I mentioned in other posts, I understand addiction, on so many levels. But I refuse to keep my mouth shut while others use addiction as a crutch or an excuse. That only props the door open for them to continue to give into the addiction, instead of taking the steps to recovery. And eventually helping others in their recovery. The truth hurts and some people may not be at the point in which they are ready to hear brutal honesty. I don't hear you doing that. You seem to be taking responsibility for the lies and mistrust that you have brought into your marriage. And isn't that the first step in the 12 step program of recovery : Admitting we have a problem that has become unmanageable. ?? Hang in there, God gave you your wife as your partner. He blessed her with the intuition she needs in your marriage. Respect it and be thankful. You sound like you already have that covered.
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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kt
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 06:55 am |
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| I have been following the discussion for a while and I do not believe that our free will is taken away. I have been caught in pornography for as long as I can remember. I am 23 years old. We make choices to do what we choose to do. I have been in recovery and have been clean since the beginning of the year. Before then, I would make the choice to turn on the computer, or dial that number, or order that pay per view. I was making a choice to do that. I know that there are thoughts that come into our heads that tempt us into trying to get us to fall into it, but it is our choice whether we are going to let that happen or not. I have read in the book, battlefield of the mind that our thoughts are the forerunner for everything that we do. We do not act and then think about what we are going to do. We think and then we act. But during that thinking process, we have a choice to make whether to act upon the impulses or not. When you say that when we are taken ahold of addiction that we are taken of our free will that is not true. To me, it is saying that someone is making us do what we do. That means that if we have no free will, then we cannot make the choice ourselves to change our lives and start living in recovery. We all have to free will to do things. You are saying that you do not make the choices to indulge in your addiction and that someone else is doing that for you. I used to make excuses for everything that I was doing, but my wife told me that in order to start recovering, that I am going to start having to take responsibility for my actions and not blame other people for what I was doing. When you say that you do not have free will when you are caught up into addiction, that someone else is making you do the things that you are doing then you will not be able to recover because you are not taking responsibility for your actions.
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TK
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 07:09 am |
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| KT, You, too, like rom517mm, sound like you have a pretty supportive partner, as well, despite your addiction. God Bless you and your recovery.
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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kt
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 07:18 am |
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| I read the post that you responded to from TK and I did not get a feeling from anywhere in that post where she was implying anything about judging or condemning. She sounds a lot like my wife though. She does not condemn my addiction or judge me, she is only hurt by the lies I have told her because she wanted me to trust her enough to tell her the truth. She loves me unconditionally and is proving it.
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TK
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 02:34 pm |
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kt,
I understand where your wife is coming from wanting you to trust her enough to be honest with her. My guy asked me in the past to help him in his recovery from sexual addiction, only to continue to lie to me about it. Of course, I am hurt when he relapses, but I am more hurt when he lies about it and I find out about it later, too. My biggest fear is that if he lies about the small stuff, he will lie about the big stuff, too. For example, if I can't trust him to tell me the truth about cybersex in the chatrooms, then how am I suppose to know if he would draw the line there or step out physically with someone else? He has often gotten viruses on the computer from various "sex" sites, which to me is an illustration of a STD from cybersex. If he steps out physically with someone, he could risk his life and mine with an STD. That's not to mention how sexual addiction, lust, and immortality affects the spiritual being in each of us.
I met this man for a reason and I am here for the long-haul. Addiction is heart-breaking, and recovery is not easy. But I trust God and I know with Him all things are possible. And I know this addiction, like mine, is just that an addiction, not who we are. We are children of God, made in his image and for His purpose.
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 03:08 pm |
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TK,
You keep referring to this man as "my guy" or "my partner."
Are you two married?
WV
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rom517mm
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 07:59 pm |
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Sorry, I never meant to imply that my wife was judgmental toward me, but rather she hated what I did (lusting/pornography). She indeed was and has been very gracious.
As for having the choice whether to act out on my lust or not, this is perhaps the first time since I've been aware of my sexuality that I have felt the sexual urges and not felt I had to give in to them.
____________________
"Since by the one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:17)
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TK
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 09:32 pm |
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Wilderness Voice,
Thank you for asking, but no, we are not currently married. I refer to him as my guy, simply out of habit. I married my high school sweet-heart that I had been with since I was 16 years old. We had 3 children. After being raped and a complete mental mess, me and my husband then, sought separation and divorce. I met my guy and we jumped into things rather quickly. We had a whirlwind honeymoon period and an even shorter "legal" marriage. As I came out of the fog, so to speak, I had to make healthy choices for me and for my four children. But I never turned my back on my guy. Anyways, to date we are there for each other more than we ever were before, for our son, as well as, for each other.
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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TK
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 09:46 pm |
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rom517mm,
I can't speak for anyone else, but I never understood you to even imply that your wife was anything but supportive for you and not in the least bit judging. Sounds to me like you have a "keeper" and she should be proud that you are working so hard and making progress in your recovery.
I heard in one of my psychology classes, that it's okay to hate the addiction or the drug, it doesn't mean you hate the addict. Instead you have empathy for them. Like me, this is probably how your wife feels about your addiction, too.
My prayers are with you.
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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Journey
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 01:00 pm |
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TK,
I just today read this thread. I will lift you up to the Father in prayer for your difficult situation.
I did have a question, do I understand from your first post that you are paying for the room/place where your brother and your guy are staying?
Journey
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