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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 05:32 pm |
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This thread is going to be tough for me.
I don't like being condemned. And I also don't like making people feel uncomfortable about some of the ways they have always viewed the Bible.
Hopefully neither of the above will happen in this thread. In the past folks have been relatively non-condemning toward me. Maybe the way I view the Bible is completely wrong, or maybe others have always viewed things as I have and it doesn't bother them at all.
One of the biggest things I have had a hard time understanding is WHY a Christian woman may feel very passionate about something that I don't see very obviously and/or clearly taught in the Bible - this wouldn't bother me so much except it seems to cause women a terrible amount of pain (pain which it seems to me - there is little or no scriptural reason to bear). I can understand pain coming because of cultural expectations broken, but the scriptural ones are those which I am more interested in.
I'll try to state (as best as I can, as a man who may not really have a clue) what seems (to me) some women in our U.S. culture may FEEL :My value as a human being - is wrapped up in this - that I am "enough" to satisfy all of my husband's desire for sexual feelings.
OK, now as regards how I see the scripture, here in this first post I plan to talk mainly in generalities - and then later, I can get specific if anyone asks me too --- I welcome others to provide links for me/us to look at in detail.
First (and maybe most significantly), when I look at the Old Testament book: "Song of Songs", I wonder about the female lead in that beautiful story. If I understand correctly, Solomon could (and I suspect did) have sex with over a thousand women "legitimately" within his culture (i.e., we come to that number if we add both his wives and concubines). Did his young love in the Song of Songs feel like she was of no worth as a woman because Solomon looked at the naked body of another woman? I read where God was not happy with Solomon about the many women, but I don't remember seeing the reason that I was expecting. The reason I do remember reading about was because God didn't want Solomon to marry women (and/or "take" Concubines, I assume) from non Jewish peoples - because God knew they would lead his heart away from the true way to worship God. I don't see anywhere where God said that Solomon would reduce the value of the woman who was supposed to be his only wife.
Of course if I were to stay very long in the Old Testament I could mention several cases where very important men of God (including David) were married to more than one woman (at the same time) and hence, I expect were receiving sexual pleasure from more than a single woman. Again I don't see any evidence that any of their worth was diminished, neither in God's eye's, or their husband's eyes, or anyone else.
Please don't read into what I am saying more than what I intend. All I have tried to say so far is that I don't see anywhere in Scripture anything that would indicate that a woman's dignity and worth can be diminished by through her husband enjoying sexual pleasure in association with another woman. Perhaps noone here has ever said that would or even could be the case .... but I have seemed to get the feeling that perhaps some have felt at least something akin to this, and maybe they even think scripture might include something roughly along those lines, --- but I don't understand WHY anyone ever would think such a thing. Please help me out here - anyone - and let me know if I am just way out in left field with this whole subject matter.
...
Ok - now one last ranting paragraph on this and then I'm done... (in this post anyway)
If it were so very important for the dignity and worth of a woman that she be the sole source of all sexual pleasure her husband ever experiences (subsequent to their marriage) ... I don't understand this:
Why I can't find anything specific in scripture that says that.
...
I may make some more posts that I dread to make - but which I think I need to make - in hopes that if I really am way off base in how I see things, some kind and brave soul will try (maybe yet again) to help me see where I have missed something(s) very important.
-Dennis
Last edited on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 05:40 pm by dennis1soil
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junkyardboy
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 05:46 pm |
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so these are the things you dream up when, in your own words:
"you are more than physically sick".
perhaps Ecclesiastes would be a more appropriate read for you.
peter
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 06:06 pm |
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junkyardboy wrote: so these are the things you dream up when, in your own words:
"you are more than physically sick".
perhaps Ecclesiastes would be a more appropriate read for you.
peter
Hi Peter,
I'm not sure what you are getting at, by quoting the same thing I said, now - in two different posts - I don't understand the relevance of either of your replies, in either of the threads.
Maybe it will help our communication if I explain what I meant by that phrase that seems to have got so much of your attention: "more than physically sick".
I mean by this: In addition to physical problems (i.e stomach ache and some very bad migraine type headaches recently), I am also currently emotionally sick.
I'm not sure exactly why I am in such an emotional wreck sort of state -- but I suspect one reason may be as follows: I have recently been reading on this site, and among other things I have heard that I should hate what I have been doing (if God cares enough about me to tell me via the Holy Spirit that I am sinning). However - as I said in another thread - I don't seem to be able to hate "my sin" enough to stop doing it. Perhaps this is the understanding that has made me emotionally sick.
I think in some ways I don't even understand what I do to actually be a sin - I find the Bible too vague to be clear on some of the points where I would expect the Holy Spirit to be enlightening me.
I assume I am the one in the wrong - and not all of the well meaning Christians I come across - people with whom I am honest enough to share my ambivalence - realizing it is not always love that I will receive back from them.
OK - now if you understand any differently what I meant by that "more than physically sick" phrase ... feel free to explain whether the points you were trying to make are still applicable.
Sorry - but at this point, I just "Don't get it".
-Dennis
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junkyardboy
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 06:13 pm |
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exactly my point dennis.
if you wish to discuss the attributes of God that is one thing.
since you admit you are emotionally ill why would anyone give considerations to your justifications.
peter
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 07:13 pm |
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junkyardboy wrote: exactly my point dennis.
if you wish to discuss the attributes of God that is one thing.
since you admit you are emotionally ill why would anyone give considerations to your justifications.
peter
Hi Peter,
I'm not asking that my "justifications" be given consideration .... however I would like to know if my WORDS are accurate when I say what I see (and don't see) in the scripture.
My point exactly is this:
People usually speak from emotions on this issue - very seldom do I see any scripture verses that directly and rationally make the fuzzy points they assume.
Now maybe the Holy Spirit is present in the people who I don't understand - while He may not be in myself. This I admit is a possibility.
The problems I have are things like this:
-- My oldest daughter was married to a guy from a Central American country. As you may know many of these countries have cultures where the men are considered much more important than the women. The way I see that culture is pretty much like this: (even in the church) the basic idea is that the reason the wife exists is to make certain her husband looks good in front of the community and at home (at least in the kitchen and living room - but in the bedroom she is also supposed to make certain he feels good). OK, now they "justify" that way of viewing "man - first" approach by using various scripture passages -- not necessarily emotions -- rather, just WORDS.
I want to be able to fight WORDS with WORDS - (when it comes to the cultural concepts of MEN are BETTER). However, I have had a hard time finding good WORDS in scripture to be able to make a very convincing case.
I suppose I could just tell all the guys in those types of churches ... you need stable emotions - and a good dose of the Holy Spirit , cause I can't really find good enough WORDS to convince you - since your heart is already in the wrong place.
-Dennis
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junkyardboy
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:07 pm |
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you are switching topics.
you have admited to sin but not too bad.
that sounds like justification to me
perhaps the justification is making you emotionally sick.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:41 pm |
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junkyardboy wrote: you are switching topics.
you have admited to sin but not too bad.
that sounds like justification to me
perhaps the justification is making you emotionally sick.
Peter,
In this thread, I was thinking you were the one to begin "switching topics", when you brought my comments from another thread here.
I believe I already said something to the effect that the way I feel emotionally may very well be related to a spiritual problem associated with my sin and perhaps a lack of genuine acknowledgement and repentance thereof. I think it would be much easier for me to recognize my sin if I could be persuaded to understand the scriptures better -- and that is not to mention my desire to help whole cultures change how the men act toward the women.
Be that as it may, I still seek to be able to understand why Christian women say they are hurt so much by the "betrayal" of their husband - when he has enjoyed looking at the unclothed body of another woman. If the reason they feel so bad is somewhere to be found in scripture - this is a place where anyone can enlighten me about it. I want to know if I have overlooked something, and/or if I am misrepresenting either what I think the Bible does, or does not say.
I asked for something similar the first time frame when I was posting frequently here -- unfortunately I was not permanently convinced by what I heard at that time. I am hoping at this point though that either some folks after further consideration on some of the points I raised, now can address my questions differently - or maybe even some of the new folks here may have something to say that will convince me of some points about which I am still skeptical.
At this point though, given the title of this thread, I'm thinking I would like to hear someone comment specifically on what I have said about the Old Testament's lack of clear prohibition of men being married to more than one wife (concurrently).
(If there is still more desire to speculate about possible reasons for my disturbed emotional condition, maybe a good place for that discussion could be in the thread where I first mentioned it).
-Dennis
Last edited on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:42 pm by dennis1soil
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junkyardboy
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:50 pm |
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are you saved dennis?
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 09:49 pm |
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junkyardboy wrote: are you saved dennis?
Peter,
I have asked Jesus to "come into my life" many times - but if you are asking me if I "have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ" -- I think in order to be honest with you I would have to say "I don't know".
I do know I have a personal relationship with my wife.
The "relationship" I have with Jesus is very different. Is it still a relationship? (and is that what it takes to be "saved") -- I don't know.
Do I always feel guilty when I look at what I consider to be the most beautiful form God has put on this planet - firstly my wife's form - and if she is not available for such and I find myself doing what other Christians say I should not be doing, (and even I very much wish I didn't feel so compelled to do) ... then -- I will truthfully tell you "No, I don't always feel guilty" ----- now, if that means I am not "saved" (in your estimation) then I guess your answer needs to be ... "No".
The way I feel about the subject these days is basically -- "I really don't know".
I know there is not even the tiniest hope that I can ever impress God with any goodness I may have - and I know there is no way I can be "saved" from any final judgment conducted by a God who really loves those (like my wife) who I have hurt so much. So the only way I could be "saved" is if Jesus really existed and was who the Bible says he was, and did what the Bible said He did, and if He decides to have mercy on me, a sinner. Otherwise - if there is really a "fair" judgment - I'm toast.
-Dennis
P.S.
If you are still interested, you might be able to learn a bit more about me by reading the (short, as of yet unfinished) song I am currently trying to write (lyrics that is) -- which I just posted in this "General Discussion" area under a title something like: "Adults Only: A song I am writing".
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junkyardboy
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 11:17 pm |
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dennis,
you say "if there is a fair judgement...i'm toast"
you did not come to that realization except that God's wonderful grace revealed it to you.
perhaps you will receive comfort here:
http://www.a1m.org/page.php?page=template1.php&pageid=8985ececcfbddf875562c13c41868d2c
peter
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http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/11/dr_john_macarth.html
http://www.valleybible.net/position_papers.php
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Lilly
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 11:20 pm |
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The thing that came across to me so strongly when reading your thread, is that its about honour.
Honouring your wife includes having her only as your sexual partner, same as for women.
Dishonouring her will make her feel she isnt good enough or feel disrespected.
Marrying someone, is an act that says that person is the one you want to share your life with, the only human you want to be intimate with on a deep level not only sexually, but spiritually, emotionally and mentally. By seeking an outside source, this dishonours that statement.
In semetic culture, honour is a verry important thing in all relationships, from personal to social to authorative, and its still the same today.
On the issue of salvation, there is an inate knowing that your life has been renewed by the Lord. The personal relationship with the Lord is unlike any human relationship, and none can come close.
The meaning of intimacy is closeness, essential, innermost, a close friend or confidant. having a tangible experience of salvation will provide such a knowing.
You say you have invited Him in many times, this may not necessarily be an issue of salvation, but of sin clouding your heart. If you are unsure, it doesnt do any harm to ask again....but asking from the depth of who you are makes the difference. God knows you anyway, He is the only one who we can really lay ourselves bare open and still be accepted.
Even in marriage, the relationship we have with God is more intimate, and enriches our personal relationships.
The difference having a relationship with the Lord makes, is Huge! It is completly different than belief. Because in relationships we learn about each other. It adds a whole new and empowering dimension to our walk with God
Adam walked with God daily, conversing with each other...this is how the Lord created us to be, now we need christ to cover us in grace, thats the only difference. God still wants that intimacy with us.
Abraham was a friend of God, God told him His plans for soddom and gammorah, Lot was a believer....but had no idea of what God was planning. Abraham was even able to change Gods mind about the city.....because Abraham was in a relationship with the Lord, a friendship.
He is the God of all generations and all people.
Jesus is alive, and He has forgiven others who have done much worse than what you can imagine, and not just one thing...multitudes....and He loves you the same and desires to know you.
I guess only revelation can show you that aspect, i do honestly hope that truth reaches you in purity and strength.
May the spirit of truth touch your heart profoundly, just as He has for others
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 11:26 pm |
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We as humans tend to make formulas out of nearly everything. I do want to comment on something though. First, You probably don't understand how much it hurts to know that you are not your husband's one and only, even if it's only in his mind. Try to picture the perspective of many women. Let's say you adore your wife and you desire only her sexually. No matter how much weight she gains, or wrinkles that appear on her face, she is your standard of beauty, and she is your only sexual desire. You are imprinted to her. Then you walk in and find her looking at a male who appears to be half your age and rippling muscles. She is so captivated by him that she doesn't even notice you walk in. She begins to pleasure herself. You make a loud noise so she knows you are there. She is embarrassed and then feels guilty. She explains that she is addicted and needs help. You love her and want to help her, but you feel like she just stabbed you with a knife. Now as you set out to help her, she gets angry if you show her that you have any amount of distrust, or any hurt. You always wonder if you are the one she's thinking of when you are making love. When you are out in public she stares at all the teenage guys. Slowly you realize that without a miracle from God you can never be what your spouse desires. How can she possibly find you sexually appealling, let alone exclusively, when she is feasting her eyes on fresh skinned males half your age. You realize that you are going to continue to age but her taste wil not age with you. Through all of this, she has the attitude that while she knows it's wrong, it's just between her and God and shouldn't upset you. How is this not devastating? Now as to the issue of a husband having lustful thouts and kicking him out of bed. No she shouldn't kick him out of bed, but will he be honest with her about what he's thinking during sex? If his thoughts are not on her during that time,then they do need to take a break from sex, and seriously seek the Lord for healing in this matter, because thst will form a habit that will be harder to break once it stops, and this definitely defiles the marriage bed. She needs to love him, support him, and try to understand him, but he also needs to try to understand her heart and how she feels. It is like getting cut with a knife all over again when a man acts like she doesn't have the right to feel violated by his lusting after others. If his attitude about her pain is flippant, then he is very likely not repentant at all.
The above quote I copied from page 2 of the "Blame" thread. I think the lady who wrote that is very good at communicating - however, I don't agree with some of the assumptions that I think are coming across through what she wrote. Maybe for some situations all assumptions are 100% correct - I can't speak for others, but I will talk about my personal situation.
....
To tell you the truth I am not exactly certain why I feel compelled to get anywhere near this subject (perhaps it might be referred to as "shark infested waters"), but I do feel compelled, and I am going to write something (whether it stays on these boards over a few hours, we will see).
At one point my wife basically told me the same kind of analogy which was so well said by the lady in the above words.
In essence, I understood my wife to be asking me "What if the shoe was on the other foot, how would you like it if I acted like you have been acting?"
I think that is a very good and fair question (I did then, and I still do now).
I thought a lot about it and surprisingly I believe the honest answer is probably different than she probably expected.
As long as she were to have done pretty much the same things I did, and perhaps more importantly, she was thinking the same kinds of thoughts that I was thinking (only of course she were looking at young "studly" type males, rather than pretty females) .... I don't think I would have much of a problem with that. (Admittedly, I'm not sure any of us ever really knows for certain how we would feel about something until that something really does actually happen - but I'm just doing my best to guess based on how I look at things now anyway). If I didn't feel like making love when she felt that she needed to experience sexual pleasure, and I knew that she would prefer to be with me sexually, but she simply could not do that a any given point, I think I could be OK with her pursuing that same type of vicarious "generic" substitute photographic "image". If her sex drive were so much stronger than mine, I don't see why I would need to consider her to be betraying me in any way by seeking some non-adulterous (as I define that word anyway - which is different than many people think Jesus defined it when he connected adultery with a definition of lust that I'm not convinced is the same thing we are talking about here).
It seems to me like one of the things people assume about their spouse when they see they are enjoying looking at another person, is that their spouse is fantasizing about some personal sexual act with the other person. In my case that has simply not been the case. Also in the quote above I get the feeling the woman is thinking that if her husband enjoys the way a young woman looks, then that necessarily means he will not be able to enjoy the way she looks, given the two of them look different. Well, here again my own personal experience shows that is not always a correct assumption. For instance, I have always enjoyed seeing my wife (and still do very, very much) - and she doesn't necessarily look just like some collage aged young woman - but that doesn't affect whether I am attracted to her - actually I have become more attracted to her as we have grown older. I am just as attracted to her whether or not I have recently looked at some nude photos of younger women. It is a totally different experience - I would much rather be with my wife sexually - I ALWAYS have - but sometimes she just isn't available, and I have not always seemed to be capable of staying away from the lesser experience. Yes, I realize I may go to hell because of that - but I am just trying to be honest here.
In another place, she mentions "she is your standard of beauty" -- well to me, I have different "standards of beauty" depending on many, many things. But when it comes to the beauty I want laying next to me in bed, there has never been any question who SHE is - my wife is my one and only choice for one on one, in person, real-life, interpersonal relationship interaction with a person of the opposite sex.
I need to bring this to a close - but I would be happy to continue and go line by line through the quote above and say honestly what my personal experience has been in regard to some of what I think may be general assumptions which perhaps many ladies make -- IMO assumptions that may actually be incorrect.
I don't know if this will be helpful to anyone - maybe I just needed to say something along these lines - because I have felt these kinds of assumptions in my own personal situation .... and to tell you the truth, I sort of felt a bit "violated" myself. Because the assumptions about what was going on in my mind, and/or what my preferences were, or my "standards of beauty" all seemed to portray me as worse person that I think I really have been.
I (for certain) do acknowledge that I have been a very bad person in one respect (related to this) - I knew my wife felt "stabbed through the heart" by what I did -- and I was honest with her a different time and told her I had "done it again", thereby causing her to feel that same pain again. (I think I have more trouble forgiving myself for that honesty - than I have had in regard to the other). Of course I am guilty before God for allowing myself to be enslaved by anything other than my devotion to God. I also very much regret that - and try to overcome it.
I probably need to have some scales peeled off of my eyes to understand better my terrible sins - but at this point I just can't FEEL the guilt like I do if for instance if I get mad and complain about someone else not doing the dishes as much as I do. I feel more guilt for that than I do for looking at a centerfold - may seem strange - but to tell you the truth my whole family has liked me better since I have come to that position. I think I was so obsessed with guilt over the porn at times in the past - that I was mad at everyone in the family and didn't really understand why.
Sorry for this interruption is looking through the Bible for things specifically about this subject - I'll try to get back on that track maybe another evening.
-Dennis
Last edited on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 11:27 pm by dennis1soil
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truthseeker
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 11:46 pm |
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Hi Dennis,
I have not sought out those previous discussions, so please forgive if I am redundant.
Gen. 2:23-4 says: "The man said, "this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called "woman," for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."
What does it mean to be united? What does it mean to be one flesh? Notice that God gave Adam only one wife to be his help mate, apparently, in His wisdom, deeming the two of them to be perfectly complete.
What is adultery? What is the lust that Jesus equated with adultery in Matt. 5:27-30?
What does it mean to love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing withwater through the Word,and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless?" Eph. 5:25-7. What does it mean for a husband to love his wife as his own body? v28.
Perhaps it is not so much what the Bible tells you not to do, though that should be heeded also, but what it affirms that you should do. The passage in Eph. 5 continues by speaking of how a man cares for his body's needs, and shows love for his wife by doing likewise for her. If it is her need to feel solely cherished, completely united with you without any shadow of another woman's presence in any aspect of your life, then does not that need take precedence over your fleshly drives?
Yes, David is referred to as a man after God's heart, but that does not mean that he was without sin. God sent a prophet to rebuke David for his sin with Bathsheba, and he faced the loss of a son, and treachery within his household. Yes, Solomon was given great wisdom, but did not apply it to all areas of his life, resulting in a divided kingdom.
If a behavior does not draw you closer to your wife, and/or the Lord, is it a worthwhile behavior? Try weighing a given behavior in light of whether it helps you grow the fruit of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22-6, or focuses your heart/spirit on the thoughts in Phil. 4:8.
Praying for you...
TruthSeeker
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Paulos
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 04:17 pm |
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Dennis,
You ask how it can wrong to have a visual sexual interest in women other than one's wife, in view of the fact that we see examples of polygamy in the Old Testament.
Nowhere does the Old Testament either explicitly permit or prohibit polygamy. The actual cases in the narratives describe facts rather than rules. The facts were part and parcel of the Ancient Near Eastern cultures in which these texts were written, where it was socially acceptable for wealthy property owners like Abraham or David or Solomon (the latter two being kings) to have multiple wives.
An important principle for interpreting scripture is to recognize that revelation is progressive in history. Certain truths become clearer over the course of time. These include, for example, the trinitarian nature of the godhead, the existence of angels and demons, God's intention to include gentile nations in his saving purpose, and so forth, all of which are found only in germ in the Old Testament. Likewise in the area of ethics. The Torah presupposes the practice of divorce (Deuteronomy 24:1-4) but Jesus plainly says this civil law was a concession to human hardness of heart and does not embody the ideal will of God that marriage should be unbreakable (Matthew 19:3-9).
Polygamy was never God's will. He created one man and one woman for each other (Genesis 2). Jesus makes this unmistakable by adding numbers not found in the text he quotes: "The two shall become one flesh" (compare Matthew 19:5 with the original in Genesis 2:24).
Paul is crystal-clear as well. "Each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband" (1 Corinthians 7:2). Also a qualification to hold the office of overseer in the church is that a man be "the husband of one wife" (1 Timothy 3:2)--because an overseer must be a model of Christian behavior to others in the church.
Though the Old Testament abstains from moralizing about polygamy, the same narratives that record the fact of it also record its consequences in the family lives of those who practiced it. Sarah and Hagar hated each other and grieved Abraham (Genesis 21:11). The Old Testament gives no case of polygamous marriage that is not associated with discord and trauma.
The Old Testament precedent for Jesus' teaching that to look on a woman with lust is adultery (Matthew 5:28) is found in Job 31:1: "I have made a covenant with my eyes; how then could I look upon a virgin?"
When the parts of scripture are interpreted properly, the will of God in this matter becomes plain and it becomes pretty hard to make a case for roaming eyes.
Last edited on Thu Jan 17th, 2008 04:18 pm by Paulos
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 05:08 pm |
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truthseeker wrote: Hi Dennis,
I have not sought out those previous discussions, so please forgive if I am redundant.
Gen. 2:23-4 says: "The man said, "this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called "woman," for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."
What does it mean to be united? What does it mean to be one flesh? Notice that God gave Adam only one wife to be his help mate, apparently, in His wisdom, deeming the two of them to be perfectly complete.
What is adultery? What is the lust that Jesus equated with adultery in Matt. 5:27-30?
What does it mean to love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing withwater through the Word,and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless?" Eph. 5:25-7. What does it mean for a husband to love his wife as his own body? v28.
Perhaps it is not so much what the Bible tells you not to do, though that should be heeded also, but what it affirms that you should do. The passage in Eph. 5 continues by speaking of how a man cares for his body's needs, and shows love for his wife by doing likewise for her. If it is her need to feel solely cherished, completely united with you without any shadow of another woman's presence in any aspect of your life, then does not that need take precedence over your fleshly drives?
Yes, David is referred to as a man after God's heart, but that does not mean that he was without sin. God sent a prophet to rebuke David for his sin with Bathsheba, and he faced the loss of a son, and treachery within his household. Yes, Solomon was given great wisdom, but did not apply it to all areas of his life, resulting in a divided kingdom.
If a behavior does not draw you closer to your wife, and/or the Lord, is it a worthwhile behavior? Try weighing a given behavior in light of whether it helps you grow the fruit of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22-6, or focuses your heart/spirit on the thoughts in Phil. 4:8.
Praying for you...
TruthSeeker Hi Truthseeker,
I included your whole post in the quote box above in part because I think it is so good - it deserves to take up twice as much space!
(I always respect what you have said).
OK - now I will address some of what you have said - and let you know why it is not so simple "cut and dry" to me, as perhaps it may be for others.
(I think I'll reorder some of what you have said - so the things are pretty much in chronological order throughout history - because it is beginning to look to me very much as if God emphasizes things differently throughout history.)
As far as God creating only one woman and one man initially - and the assumption that man didn't need more than one woman and vice versa .... I completely agree with what I think you are trying to say. Indeed Jesus himself referred back to the same passage in Genesis as a way to show that God is not pleased with men divorcing their wives. (I get the idea, at that time some Jewish men were using what Moses had written in the Old Testament as an excuse to trade off their wife in essence, for a "new model").
Do I personally agree with how Jesus interpreted that passage from Genesis ? Yes, absolutely I do. I don't want to divorce my wife at all - and it's not because I'm afraid God would send me to hell if I did, rather I just love her too much to even think about being away from her for any length of time. Not to mention, it is a great honor for me to be able to help her with the expenses of living - I would feel very, very, low indeed if she were to be in want - or if some other man assumed the privilege of helping her.
"What does it mean to be united?"
You got me there Truthseeker, I don't really know.
"What does it mean to be one flesh?"
Well, I know perhaps a little about this question. For two to become one flesh, I would assume there is greater completion ("unity"?) than is present when either of the two are still separate. I am guessing here, but the idea of a "singular mind" might apply -- for instance maybe both of the two when working as a team are more likely to stay "on track" as it were.
OK, now here is one of the really important questions you have asked me ....
"What is adultery?"
I have taken off more time from work today - because I think this subject is certainly that important to me, and I have been looking through several sources, (i.e. the verses having something to do with "adultery" listed in Nave's Topical Bible, Bible Dictionaries, verses listed in Strong's Concordance for both Hebrew and Greek words rendered as "adultery" at any point, MH's Commentary, etc...) --- in an attempt to understand exactly what the Bible does in fact mean when we read (in English) the word "adultery".
(Obviously I have probably the same general idea of what the English word means, like most other folks who speak English in the 21st Century ... but I am interested in what the Biblical authors were trying to communicate when they used the words which have been translated as "adultery").
Here are the first couple of sentences from a couple of Bible Dictionaries (which I keep on my computer) ...
Easton Bible Dictionary :
Adultery conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman was fornication. Adultery was regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin.
Smith Bible Dictionary:
Adultery Exodus 20:14; The parties to this crime, according to Jewish law, were a married woman and a man who was not her husband. The Mosaic penalty was that both the guilty parties should be stoned, and it applied as well to the betrothed as to the married woman, provided she were free. Deuteronomy 22:22-24; A bondwoman so offending was to be scourged, and the man was to make a trespass offering.
...
OK - since I am working chronologically through the Bible here - I am now going to address your comments about David and Solomon."Yes, David is referred to as a man after God's heart, but that does not mean that he was without sin. God sent a prophet to rebuke David for his sin with Bathsheba, and he faced the loss of a son, and treachery within his household. Yes, Solomon was given great wisdom, but did not apply it to all areas of his life, resulting in a divided kingdom."
I completely agree with you that David was not without sin. That is the main reason why I never entered into intercourse with my wife until after we were married - I didn't want to lose a son like David did --- the "Fear of the Lord" kept me from premarital intercourse - (technically speaking that is - I'm not saying we didn't french kiss, and pet some, etc...).
The thing I find interesting though is that I don't read about Nathan or some other prophet coming to David after he had intercourse with any of his other wives (i.e after he married his first wife), for instance I'm thinking maybe Abigail (Nabal's wife before he died), might be one example .
I get the idea (mainly from Old Testament reading), that the primary duty of the man in keeping his marriage covenant was to provide for his wife in physical ways, (e.g. to protect her and to provide access to water, food and shelter), "for all the days of her life" as we would say today. I haven't found any evidence in the Old Testament that there was anything in the marriage covenant about the husband being forbidden to take another wife. And with all the detail in Leviticus about specific detailed laws, I would think something would have been mentioned if God was really concerned about that.
Please don't misunderstand me here, I am not saying that I don't think God wants that type of clause in marriage contracts today, I am simply saying I think it is interesting that I don't see any evidence of such in the Old Testament - which is where I normally notice more detailed types of things - as far as "laws" ( and maybe "covenants?").
I probably should press "send" on this post and start another now - because yesterday I had typed two long posts in and then lost them completely due to accidentally pushing some wrong key.
Thank you for Truthseeker for reading this ... (you and/or whoever is willing to trudge through my long rambling posts). I am wondering if women in today's American culture are tapping into something that God himself has put deep into their hearts (this need for their mate to sexually be exclusively interested in only them) - when either this was not the case in ancient cultures, or it was, but God just hadn't got really specific about telling men to honor that desire.
(Maybe now you see why - in another thread - I was saying I am interested in knowing how to interpret the Bible ... both what it does say, and also what it does not say.)
...
Just this morning I was "talking" (actually chatting via Windows Live Messenger) with one of my daughters. She lives on a Island off the African coast. I didn't even bring up this subject, but when she was telling me about some of the exciting things that have happened there recently - Muslm's coming to Christ etc... - she mentioned about how several of the guys they employ at the school they founded there, either have mothers who are one of many wives to their father, or in a different case, he himself has multiple wives. (My son-in-law has been approached several times about taking someone's daughter as another wife).
Don't get me wrong through any of this please ... I am just trying to understand more about how God communicates via the scriptures --- what is cultural, and what is not. For instance, Jesus said Moses provided the ability for men to divorce their wives if they found any "unclean" thing (and that is written in the Bible!) -- but Jesus said God didn't really want it that way .... I see that as sort of a "concession", "because of the hardness of their hearts".
Maybe I have been seeking some sort of a concession because I too have a hard heart.
I have asked God before, and I will ask him again to "create in me a clean heart".
-Dennis
(Truthseeker, I know I haven't got to the most important of your questions yet ... I do plan to though --- but I need to go back to work tomorrow ... maybe this weekend some time ----- again, I think what you have said is very appropriate!, Thanks!)
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 11:32 pm |
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I have only a relatively short amount of time just now. It will take me longer when I reply to Lilly and Paulos and continue to tackle the questions and comments of Truthseeker.
So at this point, I want to just make a quick statement about something that I have found a little confusing -- maybe someone else has thought through this more than I and can help me with it.
Even though I (personally) don't think Paul's counsel about why we should get married is very good - that is, where it looks like he is saying the only reason to get married is if we can't control our sexuality any other way .... however, I do think Paul is saying something extremely good about marriage in another place (book in the NT) - where he says something along the lines that earthly marriage is sort of like a physical pattern of the spiritual relationship/marriage between the groom Jesus and His bride, the church. Btw, I wonder if the "New Testament" is in some sense sort of like the "Marriage Covenant" for that "couple" ( I think there is a similarity between Testament and Covenant) ?
OK --- now after those preparatory remarks, let me say what has confused me ....
In the analogy, when we see Jesus as the groom and each member of the universal church as his bride ... on the physical side of the analogy, isn't that sort of like the idea of a man having many wives? I don't think I should be jealous of you Truthseeker, and you Paulos, just because Jesus appears to be interested in other "brides" in addition to me.
Now before folks start getting all upset and indignant, let me say I think I can see how it is possible to look at the entire church sort of as a single entity ... however ... call me weird, but to me that way of looking at the analogy doesn't seem as the only possible one, and maybe not even the most "natural" a way to see it. Especially for folks in a culture where the idea of lose analogies is not all that common.
In other places, I have found that it could be relatively easy to get the idea from Paul's writings that women should be as obedient to their husbands as their husbands should be to Jesus. (Now if some men get that idea - heaven help their wives, because I suspect those husbands will not be very likely to provide them with much help). Down here (after the fall), power corrupts, and absolute power has a tendency to .... well, you know the rest.
One of the things I am looking at here, (reasons I try to analyze what these things can invoke in my spirit) - is because I am trying to understand how and why even churchgoing (supposedly Christian men) in many cultures justify acting the way they still do when it comes to the how men interact with women in general, and specifically the way some husbands abuse their wives (at least emotionally, and sometimes physically as well -- in some cultures they even brag about it - thinking that makes them appear more "manly"). I would like to be able to see these kinds of things (at least begin to) change in my lifetime.
However I think most of the people talking to such men about how the Bible teaches they are supposed to be loving toward their wives and daughters -- are simply not getting through --- and I want to learn ?why?.
Even in my own case, I have acted as if my wife and daughters are just not quite as important as I am. I have been in church most of my life -- and I've read the Bible and prayed a lot ... but I have still acted that way. I hate myself when I look back in retrospect at my actions (sometimes I recognize what I have done even less than an hour later....) but I can still act as if I have assumed that I (being a man) am more important than they (being female). Heaven forgive me (because I don't know if I ever can).
I think if there is any way to reach guys like I am (was?) ... it will be in understanding where I have misunderstood scriptures and/or twisted their proper meaning ... so I can re-learn what is really appropriate.
But there are some things I am still struggling with knowing how to reinterpret.
(Another is the possible ramifications of such things as Adam being created first -- in a culture where things that showed up earlier are more important ...... how guys use the fact that Eve is said to be the first one who overtly disobeyed God .... etc ...)
I want to know how to explain these types of things in a way so a man (me, for instance) will have a harder time twisting them (sub-consciously and/or consciously) in order to feel justified in thinking the Bible is really confirming our suspicion that we are "better".
(You know - I have seen very little of what is called hard-core porn, but I would not be at all surprised if the idea of men-are-better-than-women is not very prominently behind much, if not most of that)
-Dennis
Last edited on Thu Jan 17th, 2008 11:55 pm by dennis1soil
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Paulos
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Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 12:22 am |
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Dennis,
St. Paul nowhere says sexual incontinence is the only, or even the primary, reason to get married. It is a sufficient reason to seek marriage, however, and Paul does hold up marriage as the sole remedy for incontinence (1 Corinthians 7:9).
Neither male nor female is superior or inferior to the other. That's the main point of Adam's declaration about Eve in Genesis 2:23, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh." Paul confirms the mutual interdependence of the two sexes in 1 Corinthians 11:11-12.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 09:04 am |
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Paulos wrote: ...
St. Paul nowhere says sexual incontinence is the only, or even the primary, reason to get married. ...
...
Paulos,
I would very much like to believe what you have said and perhaps that is exactly correct - and based upon some of what is in Ephesians, I suppose that might be suspected, HOWEVER I don't remember reading anything in any English translation of the Bible where Paul specifically suggests someone should get married for any other reason.
If you can locate any scripture verse (in any English translation, or any other language for that matter) where you think Paul is suggesting a reason for marriage other than to help people stay sexually pure, please tell me. I would really very much like to know about it - I think it might help in convincing guys like me to "back off" on the desire to have sex so often because I think some of us feel like Biblically , sex is one of the main reasons we are married in the first place.
If there is such a passage, then perhaps my eyes have been blinded to recognizing it, because I have allowed my hormones too much freedom.
-Dennis
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junkyardboy
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Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 10:13 am |
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dennis,
in your own words you state you don't know if you are saved.
that in other words, means NO.
what does it benefit if a man has the whole world and yet loses his own soul.
your discussion thread is foolishness for a man in such a precarious position.
peter
____________________
have we been abandoned by God?
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/11/dr_john_macarth.html
http://www.valleybible.net/position_papers.php
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 10:41 am |
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junkyardboy wrote: dennis,
you say "if there is a fair judgement...i'm toast"
you did not come to that realization except that God's wonderful grace revealed it to you.
perhaps you will receive comfort here:
http://www.a1m.org/page.php?page=template1.php&pageid=8985ececcfbddf875562c13c41868d2c
peter
Peter,
I'm sorry it's been awhile, and I am only just now responding to your post.
First, thank you for assuming it is God's grace that has allowed me to recognize my need for a Savior, in order to have any hopes of surviving the wrath of one who loves (more than I) those who I have hurt. I receive some comfort that you would believe God's grace is still operating in my life at least to some extent.
I confess I haven't read through the page you provided the link to. I saw it was about TULIP (predestination) and sort of backed off. I have listened to many, many hours of sermons by John Piper ( http://www.desiringgod.org ) - and that hasn't seemed to help me all that much. I figure if a speaker and Bible scholar as gifted as he, has not yet convinced me of the comfort to be found in predestination, than reading one more page on the internet is not likely to be all that helpful either. (I'm not saying I refuse to read that page - but only that I haven't yet).
(Martin Luther in his Preface to the book of Romans said something to the effect that the doctrine of predestination can drive some people crazy if they are not mature enough for it -- I think it may have come very close with me -- I think he also said something about persecution and suffering producing maturity -- I am probably just not mature enough to get much help from a predestination type of doctrine at this point, I haven't suffered physically hardly any at all and I don't recall being persecuted for my faith much either ..... maybe some day what I have heard and read will turn out to be a great comfort though).
--- I'm not trying to slam what I expect is a great help to you, I'm just saying I may not be mature enough for it at this stage of my life.
-Dennis
Last edited on Fri Jan 18th, 2008 10:48 am by dennis1soil
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