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Guitarist_John
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 04:46 pm |
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Hans: It is not hopeless my brother. Paul said in 2nd Corinthians ch12 vs7-10 ( To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9. But he said to me, ( "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.") Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
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G63: Hans,
People have speculated for centuries about what was St Paul's thorn. He wasn't married so the thorn was clearly not his wife.
Could have been a lot of things. My guesses are epilepsy, or a speech impediment, or migraine.
I don't think his thorn was masturbation. Perish the thought.
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Hans:
I've also heard that it could have been his memory that haunted him from all the Christians that he murdered. It's all speculation. But whatever it was God was not willing to take it from him. I'm sure also that it could have hurt his witness for Christ. Think of all the people that knew him before his conversion on the road that night. I mean he did a total about face.
Dennis
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Holdsworth: whatever Pauls thorn was I am sure it was a heavy burden on him although it could have been something silly like he just couldn't stand wearing sandals!
Guitarist, hang in there.
I like the fact that it says in the Bible 'My grace is sufficient for you' it is reasuring and reminds me that God is not all 'fire and brimstone'
Somedays my shortcomings make me feel like there is no hope too.
Holdsworth
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Myself: I have another question, regarding what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12, the chapter where he speaks about the 'thorn in his flesh', how exactly does one boast about his weaknesses to keep himself humble? I've wondered this for quite a while. I'm going to ask my father, but I also wanted feedback from others too.
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"In the world you will have trouble, but I leave you my peace that where I am there you may also be." - Jesus
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Guitarist_John
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 04:59 pm |
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I think it is rather evident what Paul's thorn was: a messenger from Satan. Now, we could get into a huge discussion about this, but I've heard and think that the thorn was an evil spirit that caused troubles and riots and persecution wherever Paul went. I think its a good idea to read both chapters and think about it. Here it is in the New Living Translation:
2 Corinthians 11
Paul and the False Apostles
1 I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride[a] to one husband—Christ. 3 But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. 4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed. 5 But I don’t consider myself inferior in any way to these “super apostles” who teach such things. 6 I may be unskilled as a speaker, but I’m not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every possible way.
7 Was I wrong when I humbled myself and honored you by preaching God’s Good News to you without expecting anything in return? 8 I “robbed” other churches by accepting their contributions so I could serve you at no cost. 9 And when I was with you and didn’t have enough to live on, I did not become a financial burden to anyone. For the brothers who came from Macedonia brought me all that I needed. I have never been a burden to you, and I never will be. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, no one in all of Greece[b] will ever stop me from boasting about this. 11 Why? Because I don’t love you? God knows that I do.
12 But I will continue doing what I have always done. This will undercut those who are looking for an opportunity to boast that their work is just like ours. 13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
Paul’s Many Trials
16 Again I say, don’t think that I am a fool to talk like this. But even if you do, listen to me, as you would to a foolish person, while I also boast a little. 17 Such boasting is not from the Lord, but I am acting like a fool. 18 And since others boast about their human achievements, I will, too. 19 After all, you think you are so wise, but you enjoy putting up with fools! 20 You put up with it when someone enslaves you, takes everything you have, takes advantage of you, takes control of everything, and slaps you in the face. 21 I’m ashamed to say that we’ve been too “weak” to do that! But whatever they dare to boast about—I’m talking like a fool again—I dare to boast about it, too. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I know I sound like a madman, but I have served him far more! I have worked harder, been put in prison more often, been whipped times without number, and faced death again and again. 24 Five different times the Jewish leaders gave me thirty-nine lashes. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked. Once I spent a whole night and a day adrift at sea. 26 I have traveled on many long journeys. I have faced danger from rivers and from robbers. I have faced danger from my own people, the Jews, as well as from the Gentiles. I have faced danger in the cities, in the deserts, and on the seas. And I have faced danger from men who claim to be believers but are not.[c] 27 I have worked hard and long, enduring many sleepless nights. I have been hungry and thirsty and have often gone without food. I have shivered in the cold, without enough clothing to keep me warm.
28 Then, besides all this, I have the daily burden of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak without my feeling that weakness? Who is led astray, and I do not burn with anger?
30 If I must boast, I would rather boast about the things that show how weak I am. 31 God, the Father of our Lord Jesus, who is worthy of eternal praise, knows I am not lying. 32 When I was in Damascus, the governor under King Aretas kept guards at the city gates to catch me. 33 I had to be lowered in a basket through a window in the city wall to escape from him.
2 Corinthians 12
Paul’s Vision and His Thorn in the Flesh
1 This boasting will do no good, but I must go on. I will reluctantly tell about visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I[a] was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know—only God knows. 3 Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know 4 that I was caught up[b] to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell. 5 That experience is worth boasting about, but I’m not going to do it. I will boast only about my weaknesses. 6 If I wanted to boast, I would be no fool in doing so, because I would be telling the truth. But I won’t do it, because I don’t want anyone to give me credit beyond what they can see in my life or hear in my message, 7 even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.
8 Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away. 9 Each time he said, “My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness.” So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me. 10 That’s why I take pleasure in my weaknesses, and in the insults, hardships, persecutions, and troubles that I suffer for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Paul’s Concern for the Corinthians
11 You have made me act like a fool—boasting like this.[c] You ought to be writing commendations for me, for I am not at all inferior to these “super apostles,” even though I am nothing at all. 12 When I was with you, I certainly gave you proof that I am an apostle. For I patiently did many signs and wonders and miracles among you. 13 The only thing I failed to do, which I do in the other churches, was to become a financial burden to you. Please forgive me for this wrong! 14 Now I am coming to you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you. I don’t want what you have—I want you. After all, children don’t provide for their parents. Rather, parents provide for their children. 15 I will gladly spend myself and all I have for you, even though it seems that the more I love you, the less you love me.
16 Some of you admit I was not a burden to you. But others still think I was sneaky and took advantage of you by trickery. 17 But how? Did any of the men I sent to you take advantage of you? 18 When I urged Titus to visit you and sent our other brother with him, did Titus take advantage of you? No! For we have the same spirit and walk in each other’s steps, doing things the same way.
19 Perhaps you think we’re saying these things just to defend ourselves. No, we tell you this as Christ’s servants, and with God as our witness. Everything we do, dear friends, is to strengthen you. 20 For I am afraid that when I come I won’t like what I find, and you won’t like my response. I am afraid that I will find quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness, slander, gossip, arrogance, and disorderly behavior. 21 Yes, I am afraid that when I come again, God will humble me in your presence. And I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins. You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality, and eagerness for lustful pleasure.
Last edited on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 05:02 pm by Guitarist_John
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"In the world you will have trouble, but I leave you my peace that where I am there you may also be." - Jesus
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 12:33 pm |
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((This is a story from the Voice of the Martyrs. This man’s thorn was never removed from him until death. . . . Remember, this is not printed against Muslims, many of whom would never do this. But to show this young man’s example of Faith.))
Hani was born into a Christian Family in Upper Egypt in 1985. He was proud of his Christian heritage, and like many Coptic Christians, he tattooed a cross onto his wrist. He was also proud of his name, which means “joyful” in Arabic. He treated people kindly; they could see joy and the love of Christ in his sparkling eyes. His Christian lamp was filled with oil and shone brightly for all to see.
During Hani’s time of required military service, his commanding officer began to pressure him to convert to Islam. Though the officer and other Islamists attempted to lure him with promises of material wealth, Hani refused.
“I’ll never leave the Lord,” he insisted. “I love Him. I was born a Christian, will remain a Christian and will die a Christian.”
The persecution intensified. Fellow soldiers called him Islam instead of Hani. They insisted he recite the Koranic prayers when he ate with them. They denied Hani food, his sleep was interrupted, and he was beaten and provoked into fights.
The commanding officer would often trip Hani and then order him to lick his boots. He burned him with cigarettes, and family members say Hani was forced to remove his vest and crawl on the floor. Fellow soldiers would stomp on his back with their boots and tell him, “Let your saints help you!”
Unable to bear much more, just before Hani took his final leave from the military, he told his commanding officer he would report the persecution to military intelligence if it did not end. The commander warned Hani it he did so, he would “settle accounts” with him. He plotted to be rid of Hani once and for all.
Hani’s family was called to the local hospital one week after he had returned to the army from family leave. They were told he had drowned in the Nile River, and they needed to confirm his identity.
Hani’s family members collapsed when they examined his body in the morgue. It was obvious he had not drowned; he was a victim of abuse and murder.
“His mouth was open, tongue protruding outwards and his eyes were swollen,” his mother tearfully explained. “They burned his hands and feet and strangled him. They terribly tortured him.”
Hani’s ribs and teeth were broken, and he had been stabbed with a knife. The tattooed cross on his wrist had been scraped off with a blade.
The cross may have been removed from Hani’s flesh, but his assailants could not remove Jesus from his heart.
Jesus said all mean would hate his followers because of Him (Matt. 10:22), but we rejoice in knowing Hani “stood firm until the end.” His body was broken, he was brutally martyred, but Hani’s lamp was not extinguished. His life and witness is the oil that keeps his lamp glowing now thorugh others – through those who hear his testimony.
((There is more of this story at http://www.persecution.com ))
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guitarist63
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Posted: Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 05:36 pm |
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Thank you for sharing this, WV. Very moving to hear of the sufferings of those faithful to God. It reminds me of a small paperback I read in about 1979, entitled something like "Christian Persecutions in Russia" with photographs of a family whose father was captured and terribly tortured. There were photographs of him after the death. Enough to move the hardest of hearts.
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