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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Thu Nov 8th, 2007 11:07 pm |
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This is not meant for those who don't know Christ or have never come to Him in deep repentance before. It is definitely if the shoe fits thing or rather something for those who desire a deeper walk with God.
Please try to really think about what I’m going to say here rather than focus on the immediate reaction. This is hard truth, but is absolutely meant to heal even though the immediate affect may be a hurt. And also understand, that I too had to come this way.
I’ll explain with an allegory and then get to the point.
If a person committed a murder, for whatever reason except by accident, should they feel bad that they did it? I would assume most everyone’s answer is yes. If they truly repented and were sorrowful over their deed, should they be forgiven? I would assume most everyone’s answer is yes. Should they immediately no longer feel bad they did it? I would assume most everyone’s answer to be no. It may take time to get over it and be healed. Should they be consoled immediately after committing the crime? I would assume the answer is probably not, it would take time for the person’s deep repentance to form and the consoling should come as part of the healing process of becoming a different person.
Now if they did it again, should they feel bad that they did it? Yes. If they’re truly repentant and sorrowful, should they be forgiven? Yes. Should they immediately no longer feel bad that they did it? No, and it would take even more time to get over it and be healed. Should they be immediately consoled? Probably not, they should have time to digest the seriousness of their actions and then when the real change had a chance to take hold, consoling could be part of the healing and recovery.
Now if they did it again – same questions. Yes, forgiven if repentant. No, they’ll naturally and should feel worse than if it was only once. It would take a long time to heal and consoling would have to be thoughtfully withheld to allow correction to have its work. You certainly wouldn’t want to have them do this again. The warnings would be sterner, the consequences portrayed as much more grave to their soul. Consoling and comforting would have their place, but to do it right away could have a reverse affect and make the person believe that every time they did something wrong – arms of love would immediately take away the pain of guilt and shame and the time needed for correction.
Now what about stealing? First time, second, third, fourth, fifth?
Now adultery? First, second, third, fourth, fifth and so on?
Now mental infidelity?
- on and on – till we reach masturbation?
Should we feel bad? Yes.
Can we be forgiven if repentant? Yes.
Should we be immediately consoled after having committed the act? Maybe if it was the first time. But what about one who has gone for months and goes back to it on a binge? Immediate consolation?
My point here is not really how we should treat others. But how should we treat ourselves? Should we feel sorry for ourselves that we have chosen again and again to disobey God? Probably not. Should we immediately run and look for someone to comfort us and make us feel better? Probably not.
Too often we feel sorry for ourselves for committing sin that we actually enjoy doing.
Just a thought for many of you who have trouble breaking the cycle. This is a hard thing to face about ourselves. And this is something that a real man would do – face the consequences. Take the rebuke of the Lord when we disobey and choose to do wrong.
This does not mean to languish in remorse. Let the consoling and comforting come when He sees fit that we need it. Don't beg for it right after doing something wrong.
As I keep saying. The truth shall make you free.
Wilderness Voice
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Seeking God
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 02:38 am |
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...
WV, when I read your post,
I'm reminded of
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you. (Jam 4:7-10) Emphasis added
Now I am happy, not because you had such sorrow, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you were sorry in a godly way, and so you were not hurt by us in any way. For having sorrow in a godly way results in repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regrets. But the sorrow of the world produces death. See what great earnestness godly sorrow has produced in you! How ready you are to clear yourselves, how indignant, how alarmed, how full of longing and enthusiasm, how eager to seek justice! In every way you have demonstrated that you are innocent in this matter. (2Co 7:9-11) Emphasis added
I personally hates sorrow, all I want is happy, happy, happy, maybe I mixed it up with "positive thinking", but there is Godly sorrow, and we need that. I remember having the most extreme joy, only after experiencing gut wrenching sorrow after realizing that I've desecrated His temple, and defiled His holiness.
....
Just my thoughts....
Cheers
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B
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Posted: Sat Nov 10th, 2007 08:59 am |
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Something that we all need to be careful about is getting caught up in ourselves.
In the Third Chapter of the letter to the Romans, St. Paul writes that "None is righteous, no not one." We have all sinned, we have turned aside, we have become worthless. We don't even seek God.
This is the reality of sin. We are "brought forth in iniquity" and were conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5). "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"(Jeremiah 17:9)
Like David, we know our transgression, and our sin is ever before us. (Psalm 51:3)
This is the Law. The Law condemns us. It points to our sins and tells us that we deserve death and eternal damnation for even the slightest infraction. The Law tells us that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. The law tells us that we must be perfect, or else face God's just and righteous wrath. We know this. Our conscience, as well as Satan, constantly bear witness to this. We despair, because "No one is righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10b). We know that we deserve death, because we have offended against God's holy law. We are grieved by our sins, just as St. Paul was with his. With Paul we cry out "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? (Romans 7:24).
This is the working of the Law. God's holy word acts as a mirror to show us the ugliness and dirtiness of our faces. However, we do not end at the Law. The law does not justify sinners. The law beats sinners down. It shows us who we really are: fallen creatures, meriting God's eternal wrath. We cannot stop with the Law if we wish to overcome. The Law is not the way out of sin. All that the Law does is show sin for what it is, and it breaks us when we see our imperfection. Therefore, we don't stop here. This is not the end of the story, it is only part of it. "For by works of the Law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."(Romans 3:20)
However, St. Paul doesn't stop at his sins, and neither should we. If we read the next verse, Paul says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Romans 3:23)After despairing of his wretched state, Paul rejoices :"But thanks be to God in Christ Jesus!"(Romans 7:25). Notice where Paul finishes. He is not content to wallow in his own sin, however wretched he feels about it. He realizes that his sins have been forgiven in Christ. Think about that. Why stop at feeling bad about our sins and not tell the entire story? The bible is not about you or me. It is not about me over coming this and you overcoming that. The bible is about Jesus. We sinners need to trust Christ and his finished work, rather than our own trying better or feeling bad. Sure, we will be grieved over our sin just as Paul was. We will feel horrible that we have committed the same sin over and over again. However, we ought not stop at our own sinfulness. It isn't about me. It is about Jesus, and what he has accomplished for me.
We rejoice knowing that God clothes our nakedness in Christ. We are not perfect, but Christ's perfection is attributed to us. This is not due to any good works of our own. We didn't even want God's grace in Christ. God gave it to us anyway. He came down from heaven, was born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilot, was crucified, died, and was buried; and the third day he rose from the dead. ALL OF THIS FOR YOU!
His work is accomplished. He finished it all on a dark Friday afternoon. He took all of your and my nastiness into himself and it was nailed to the tree and struck down with Christ.
Our sins are forgiven. They were forgiven 2000 years ago. They are forgiven before we even commit them.
We are grieved to know that we continue to sin. We are grieved even more when we realize how gracious our God is. We trust in Christ and his finished work. This is the only way to freedom from sin. Our own works are filthy rags. Christ's work has been accomplished. We are forgiven, and we are at peace with God. We are free from sin and death.
Let us not fall into the temptation to look at ourselves rather than Christ. Look into the mirror of the Law and it will show you your ugliness. Take this ugliness to Christ, who has already taken it upon himself for you. Say, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner"(Luke 18:13).
He will have mercy. His mercy is infinite. His blood covers all of your sins. Even the ones you continuously struggle with. It is only by God's great mercy that you even feel bad for your sins. However, in his holy word, God tells us to move beyond our sin. He calls us to his son Christ, in whom we find our perfection. We may continue to sin for the time being, but God is moving us away from our sinful ways through trust in Christ his Son.
Not all the Blood of Beasts
On Jewish altars slain
Could give the guilty Conscience peace
Or wash away the stain.
But Christ the Heavenly Lamb
Takes all our sins away
A sacrifice of nobler name
and richer blood than they.
____________________
O Christ, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world. Have Mercy upon us.
http://housemdiv.blogspot.com/
http://www.extremetheology.com/
http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com/
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B
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Posted: Sat Nov 10th, 2007 09:15 am |
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Why not beg forgiveness from God right after sinning? When we are remorseful after sinning, why not tell God that we regret what we did? Why not beg for forgiveness? Christ won forgiveness on the cross for our sins. They are already paid for. If they are already paid for, why not confess and ask for forgiveness?
Wilderness Voice, Perhaps you are just speaking out against the tendency to find some vague consolation after we have sinned. If this is indeed what you are condemning, I am with you. Rather that a vague comfort, we must turn to Christ who has died for our sins and brought us forgiveness. This is real, objective, and outside of us. It is not mere emotional assurance.
____________________
O Christ, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world. Have Mercy upon us.
http://housemdiv.blogspot.com/
http://www.extremetheology.com/
http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com/
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guitarist63
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Posted: Sat Nov 10th, 2007 12:22 pm |
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Thank you B. You've made it much clearer to me that I don't have to keep getting condemned and bashed over the head for my sins but that Jesus has already accomplished victory over sin and death. I must continue to hate sin and seek His strength to rid myself of sin. I must love the Lord God with all my heart, all my strength and all my mind. I will continue to fight sin in my life and seek to do the will of Jesus Christ - cheerfully. Joyful, cheerful obedience, not miserable legalistic subservience. I can't do this in my own strength, only His.
Standing, kneeling, or prostrate before God, I am forgiven and made righteous by His blood and not for any other reason can I approach and have communion with God. The veil of the Holy of Holies has been torn from top to bottom and I (we) can come into the intimate presence of God. Says the Psalmist, Psalm 139 (speaking of God's hand upon him), "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is too high, I cannot attain it." One is left without words adequate to express what God has done.
Last edited on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 08:27 pm by guitarist63
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Sat Nov 10th, 2007 02:24 pm |
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Blood:
To spend hours and hours and hours feeding our minds full of worldly garbage then going and spending time manipulating our bodies until we achieve orgasm is a far greater example of being caught up in ourselves then spending a few minutes or an hour reflecting on why we keep cheating God.
If all someone did was spend hour upon hour comtemplating the forgiveness and sacrifice of Christ, they might indeed overcome. But this is not what is happening. The time devoted to being caught up in themselves is on the sexual - self-centered side. It far outweighs the time devoted to soul-searching.
Forgiveness is done, but cannot be received without repentance. A non-repentant sinner is not under grace.
I write to these poor souls, my brothers, because I have found the freedom in Christ Jesus literally. Not by some form of mental realization, but by the work of God.
Tell a feel good forgiven story to a wife who suffers again and again from a husband's adultery. She's not gonna want to hear why it's o.k. because Jesus forgave him. She's going to want to know just what he's doing to repent and change.
People absolutely do have responsibility or they wouldn't end up in hell looking up and asking Lazurus for a drink of water nor would there be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I resent what you've said personally. Because it is the same mantra I listened to for years in the church that helped keep my soul in bondage to the chains of hell. You are not pointing the way out but the putting of skin cream on a dying persons soul. I'm free in Christ Jesus, not because of listening to this type of message, but by following the Word of God.
Don't expect me to be polite when it comes to things like this, I won't. I won't attempt to stop you from posting somewhere else and I certainly can't do anything if the administration of this board takes this off. But at least you'll know that one person out here is sick of the church's poison candy and perversion of the gospel of Christ.
Wilderness Voice
We are rightfully told, that by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But there are works to be done that are not following a set of rules or formulas, but works done along with the Holy Spirit. Strictly following the syruping teachings of today's church, believing this certain thing and that certain thing is the very same as declaring justification by works of the law. They find the exact loopholes and semantic interpretations to justify themselves while they yet continue in a life of sin. This is the same thing the Pharisees did. They declared themselves righteous by adherence to a set of rules and so does the modern church. And they condemn anyone who rebukes them for their wickedness. They have made a law unto themselves and follow the works thereof and are not faithful to God.
My Faith is evident in my works - the works of God in my life. This is the Faith that I wish to share with my brethren that they too might be faithful unto God who called them. How dare we deny the cry of their heart for faithfulness; that they might be counted among the faithful and true followers of Christ. How dare we promise life everlasting with no fruit, no evidence, that that life has taken hold and has begun here and now. Sweet words of human consolation will never remove the stains of sin from a soul. Only Christ can do this work. And it is a real work, not a work in which the person is asked to believe that something is different when they are sunk under the muck and mire of sin. They need to literally be pulled free by the power of God, not told to picture themselves as free while they yet suffocate beneath the putrid stench of hell's lust. Wake up foolish Christians!
James 2:
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
We have no power to forgive our own sins, nor pay the price for them, but in Christ Jesus, we sure have the power to stop them. If we love our sins then we have not received the fulness of Christ! Because we have not received a love for the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness as the scripture so says.
Last edited on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 02:59 pm by Wilderness Voice
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Sat Nov 10th, 2007 03:53 pm |
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Why should we counsel people to not spend a single minute in remorse over their sins and conspicuously leave out any counsel that they shouldn't spend hours and hours looking at porn?
What hope is their offered in telling people that they're always going to be sinning and that what they really need to do is to learn not to feel guilty about it? Don't spend a second with guilt. But I won't and can't tell you not to spend hour upon hour in front of a computer screen drinking filthy images into your soul?
What a formula for spiritual disaster!! How bankrupt of the Spirit of Grace from God! God is Holy and you don't believe that He can impart holiness unto His people?
Not a second with guilt, repentance is but a word crossing the lips, I confess and its done. But hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of sinning?
Nonsense!! Jesus would never, ever preach such a thing. This is turning the Grace of God into lasciviousness.
Accuse me of being angry and out of place of judging of taking vengeance that belongs to the Lord – Jesus died for it and I won’t spend two seconds in guilt!
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TimM
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Posted: Sat Nov 10th, 2007 05:45 pm |
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Friends,
At the risk of stepping into the middle of a theological discussion where I don't belong, let me try to offer a couple of thoughts on the very important question of the place of consolation and punishment of the repentant sinner.
To me, this seems a complicated question, one to which I'm not sure there is a single answer applicable in every situation.
One of the things that makes it hard for me to think about your meditations, is that they obviously include reflections on several scenarios, among them the sinner and a wronged party, the sinner and a fellow sinner who is not his victim, and the sinner and God.
Not being God and not being the betrayed partner of an addict, I don't have much to say about how God and betrayed partners should behave. They are free agents, and we as addicts need to behave with humility and to accept their freedom to act as they see fit.
The questions that therefore have bearing on my own life are
(1) Does it advance my recovery if I condemn and isolate myself after sinning?
(2) Does it advance either my friend's recovery or mine if I help him to feel condemned and isolated after sinning?
There are probably situations where the answer to these questions is, "Yes." If someone really does not yet understand that what he is doing is wrong and if he really has not yet understood that his sins have consequences in his own life and not just in the lives of others, then it may be important for him to learn to feel the pain of addiction. We meet people here who may be like that, people who assertively proclaim that all men use porn, that it isn't a big deal, and that their partners just need to mellow out and accept recreation everybody knows is harmless. If those people really are not feeling pain (as opposed to putting a brave front on a soul that is suffering more inwardly than they dare to show), then perhaps they need to suffer more and to be isolated more. Perhaps we help them most by treating them brusquely and leaving them to suffer.
Now, I may be over-generalizing from my own experience, but my own guess is that most of us as addicts, and most of the admitted addicts we meet, are not in this situation. We know full well that what we have been doing is wrong. We've been struggling for years to find a better way to live, but we haven't yet been able to find it. And so we are caught in an endless cycle of pain. We act out; we hate ourselves for acting out; we hide in shame and in isolation because of that self-hatred and despair; and in the end, our shame and despair and isolation lead us to seek comfort again in the very acting out that perpetuates and deepens the cycle.
Because we feel so strongly the wrongness of our actions, we continue to hide in shame and despair, believing, as Patrick Carnes says, that no one would love us if they knew us as we are.
I think this kind of pain is more nearly the lot of most addicts than the blithe indifference of refusing to think about whether we are doing wrong. Sometimes we may have to dig a bit to find this shame and despair, which I think we often hide even from ourselves; but I think that for most of us, the shame and despair are there, and that they are huge.
If that's so, then the last thing we need to feel for ourselves or to offer to our fellow addicts is even deeper shame and despair. We have a deeply entrenched way of dealing with those feelings, and it isn't seeking real repentance. It's falling deeper into the addictive cycle.
The way out of the cycle of isolation and shame and hating ourselves so much that we cannot even look honestly at our own actions seems to me to include the acceptance of who we are and the realization that even where we are, there is love and there is hope. I need to believe that even if I have just sinned, I can still talk to my brother, and that my brother will not judge but will help me to understand what feelings led me to sin and what I can do next time. I need to be clear that fear and isolation have drawn me into sin, and that my path out has to be a path of openness and community, and that this path is safe. I have to come to imagine the astounding and unbelievable truth that despite my sins, I might be accepted and even loved by other people and by God. My first instinct after sinning has to be to approach others and to feel hope, rather than to sink again into isolation and despair.
For me, it was only becoming able to think and to feel and to hope in this way that enabled me to reach out in trust and to find the communion and the faith that have begun to lead to my living a life of sobriety and serenity.
I hear the message of some of you that for you, the path out required you to feel more pain and self-criticism. For me, it wasn't that way. Oh, I needed the pain and self-criticism, all right, but I already had them in abundance. I also needed a glimpse of acceptance and love and community and trust. I needed to be able to look at myself honestly without so much self-loathing that I could no longer see anything.
So to me, it seems desperately important that we addicts be able to feel gentleness and hope and care for ourselves if we are to be able to see our way to truth and to freedom.
How, then should others treat addicts to stumble? Again, I have no advice for God and for partners. I'm not entitled to offer them advice. But I can say that if a brother comes to me and has just sinned, then I know he is in pain. I know he has just acted in great courage to reach out to me. I know he is feeling despair and shame and a driving desire to hide. I don't need to add to that pain and isolation. I'm not entitled to add to that pain and isolation. What he has just done, I have done a thousand times over in my life.
I can greet him in love. I can accept him as a sinner like me. I can offer him my experience and my hope. I can share my experiences. I can invite him to explore his own mind and his own heart. I can show him that despite what we all fear, community and trust are safe, and that they are the only paths to wholeness.
That's what I feel strongly I am called to do. It's perhaps a different calling than some of the rest of you, one appropriate for a different sort of addict and sinner than the one helped by other ways. I'm OK with that. But I want to offer another vision and to open another door for those for whom the self-hatred is already there and the possibility that others might care and understand is not. And I want to open a path for the addict whose call to serve is a call to listen and to love and neither to turn away nor to judge.
As always, just how it seems to me. The rest of you need to be led by your understanding of yourselves and of others and by your theology and by your God to the place that is right for you.
Tim M.Last edited on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 06:11 pm by TimM
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Seeking God
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Posted: Sat Nov 10th, 2007 06:25 pm |
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3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Mat 5:3-4
Tim, I would think that what WV says regarding this matter is about "hitting bottom". Please share your thoughts on this....
I share the emphaty that B says, and rejoice over grace that has been offered.
But grace comes at a price, by blood of the Lamb, precious, and we are totally unworthy for it. And so I agree with WV. Knowing the full knowledge of sin, and continue sinning by taking grace for granted is by all means blasphemy against the Cross (Oh, I'd just sin, I can't help it... I'm sure God will understand.... He will forgive me...) (Hebrews 10:26-29)
We must mourn, cry for our sins. Must we become a pharisee? who claimed that God MUST forgive us, just because we know a few verses but chose to disobey the others? who claimed circumcision by 'inviting Christ to our heart' is what saves us... but neglecting the will of God? No, Everyone including myself NEED CHRIST in the fullness of Him. I need Him, because He is the only way, the only truth, and the only life which is Him in me.
There is more that I would share, but I prefer to stop here, and listen.
It is a great joy to hear Grace, repentance, and sorrow as an integral, and undivided solid truth. I really appreciate these posts, do write more, I will await in hunger.
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 21
so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:21
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Sat Nov 10th, 2007 06:34 pm |
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Tim,
I had the self-hatred, loathing, and horrible shame myself. I used to hide everything from others thinking that no one could love me like this. And it did no good. But neither was I able to see the deeper depths that led me to, not the hatred of myself, but the hatred of the sin. It is the sin that should be hated, not the person God would have us to be. God didn't love me with the sin - He loved me without it. He saw the person He created me to be in chains of pain and suffering and beat the other away from my soul. I too felt deeply loved by God, but loved enough to get a spanking even though I thought all I needed was to be enfolded in consolation. But God gives that also, it just has a lot more affect if administered after a chastisement - which scripture tells us yields the fruit of righteousness.
But it is foolish to tell someone they shouldn't spend one second feeling guilty and not telll them they shouldn't spend one second on the internet looking at porn. We are being told that we should accept the inevitable, but go to work on the impossible. It is an uttter denial of the power of God to free a soul.
Tim, my original message was not directed at you, but at the syrupy application of a gospel of no repentance. Telling people in bondage that they might as well get used to it because there's no way out. You should only learn to not feel guilty.
Well not feeling guilty is not the only possible thing to learn. If we have the power to practice a certain belief mode until we don't feel guilt, then by the power of God we can practice a certain belief mode that will keep us away from hours of isolation in front of a computer, magazine, or our own thoughts of lusting and lusting. It is counter productive to say you can and should do the one, but you might as well not even try doing the other. And it is not a message from God.
Instead of spending hours of sinning and masturbating and then hours of self-loathing, why not spend hours and hours reading the Bible? Hours of praying? Hours of godly input only? These things we are free to do. If we don't, it's because we don't want to and if we lust and sin and lust and sin it's because we like it, plain and simple.
You keep saying people all know these things. Do they? They might be hating themselves - this the devil does also. How about hating their sin? They don't hate their sin, they really like it. They hate themselves and love the sin. They loathe themselves for their actions but are drawn like a moth to a light for lust and the satisfaction of it. They hate this? No, Tim, people do not hate the sin, the act of sin itself. The truth is that people do not do what they absolutely hate, they do what pleases them. If they would allow God to give them the hatred for sin like He has the hatred for sin, then freedom would come. They would not like the sin anymore because they would have God's hatred for it. This is what I'm trying to share with others, not a hatred of your true self, but a hatred of the sinful nature. God hates it too. And we are supposed to be made into the image of God. Why can't this be a part of us as well? Why are we denied the hatred of our sin and told to immediately run to feelings of peace and consolation?
Hiding in shame and despair is useless. Coming into the light, letting our deeds be made manifest is life.
I am not counseling people to live in condemnation and never did. This is putting words into my mouth to create something that can be argued against.
This watery message of the churches has been going on for forty-fifty years now and look at the horrible condition of the members. This site prints the statistics. This message has done no good. Not a bit of good. These people are crying out for help and that watery message offers only consolation to the hopeless.
I cannot make anyone see anything. No power is given to anyone except by God as Jesus said to Pilate. If my words are twisted and misread and not understood for the life contained therein, then so be it. They did the same to Jesus.
Wilderness Voice
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TimM
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Posted: Sat Nov 10th, 2007 09:40 pm |
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WV,
I didn't take your original post as directed at me, and I hope I'm not coming across as picking a fight with you. I don't mean to do that. It's more than possible that I'm misunderstanding your words, but I'm certainly not trying to twist them and make you into a straw man. My apologies if I've treated you unfairly. I'm sorry you feel as though your words are being twisted. On deep and complicated matters like this, I don't always understand right away, and maybe none of us does; but I'm really not looking for things to pick at.
I'm sure part of my misunderstanding comes because your posts have been in some sense rebuttals of positions I have never heard presented by anyone. You think it's unreasonable to tell people not to feel guilty but not to tell them not to look at porn. I agree, but I've never heard anybody do that. You're against what you call the syrupy gospel of no repentance. I am too, but I've never heard that gospel preached. You oppose a teaching that says I should learn not to feel guilt but that I should despair of ever changing my actions. So do I. It's nuts. I doubt anybody believes this. If all you're doing is arguing against obviously crazy positions like these, then you and I are in complete agreement.
Probably you're saying the same thing - if all Tim is doing is arguing against the obviously nutty doctrine that the best thing to do is to hide from God and man in shame, then of course we agree.
I wonder if what's going on isn't something like this, WV. You and I would use different words, but I suspect we both agree that making a new way of life requires some sort of genuine repentance and hitting bottom and desperation not to keep living as we have been living. I suspect we would also agree that part of the new life we are moving toward includes acceptance of unconditional love from others, and it includes a refusal to judge others.
You seem to have started out worried that there are people who believe only in unconditional, non-judgemental love, and that this position leads to continued sin and despair. You therefore want to make sure we feel the horror of our sins. Hearing that message, I've become worried about the state of someone who hears only the horror of his sins and who never hears the message of hope and love, and so I preach those virtues. Both of us, in the course of our argumentation, set up straw men who can't possibly exist in order to show the impossibility of hope without despair, or of despair without hope.
If this is part of what has gone on, then I wonder what would happen if we both gave up the straw men and tried to articulate the exact place of despair and the exact place of love in our new lives? Might we be closer together than we think?
Probably we'd still have some differences. Hate has been so poisonous to me that hatred of anyone or anything is a very hard sell for me, while hatred of sin seems important to you. I'm also much less convinced than you that we start out loving our sin. I think our minds and souls are so divided that the truth is more complex than this. But I bet that if we limited ourselves to talking about what we think is true rather than what we think is false, we might do better at finding unity.
There are various ways I could go from here, but I think I'll quit in hopes of disentanging myself from a discussion in which I think I've said what I need to say on the importance of gentleness to ourselves and others. I don't think that you or anybody advocates the positions to which someone could be driven by an over-reliance on self-loathing. Perhaps you also don't think some of the extreme positions you battle against are really held by anyone either.
Tim M.
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guitarist63
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Posted: Sun Nov 11th, 2007 03:45 pm |
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It's as clear as day that WV is railing against B and also against me for appreciating what B has written in this thread. I see nothing objectionable or unscriptural in B's post.
I amend what I have originally written because of what Wilderness Voice has correctly pointed out.
There are some mistakes in B's long post - it's verse 23 of Romans Chapter 3, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and not as B states, the next verse. Also, it wasn't the Law that stated the point our righteousness should exceed that of the Pharisees but Jesus. Matthew Chapter 5, verse 20. All mistakes considered, I still think that B makes some good points and I don't think he, any more than I, would for a moment disagree with what St Paul's says, Romans 6, verses 1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" My apologies to Wilderness Voice for overlooking these mistakes, and also to B for not pointing them out to him.
Last edited on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 08:32 pm by guitarist63
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Sun Nov 11th, 2007 03:52 pm |
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Tim,
God Bless You. Sometimes when I get a post back from you, I feel like I'm talking to a newscaster. You reinterpret what I've said then ask me to comment on the re-interpretation. I just don't do very good with that kind of discourse.
I will comment on two things. Regarding hatred of sin: we are instructed in the Bible to hate evil and then told many times what that is. Also God directly states many times throughout scripture that He hates sin. And Jesus said in revelations that He hated certain deeds and commended people for hating the same deeds. David said he hated wickedness many, many times. So when you point out that hatred of sin is important to me, it doesn't make me feel out of place, in fact, I'm honored that you would acknowledge that I do.
Second, I'm confused in the juxtaposition of not wanting to hate sin on the one hand, and not being sure that people love their sin on the other. Is there some in between, I like to look at porn and masturbate, but I don't really love it? Or, I dislike porn and masturbation, but I do it anyway? Maybe the answers to these questions are yes. But then, it just proves my point, that if we really, completely hated the sin, we would find it so much easier to stop. And since God hates it, it doesn't seem unwarranted to ask Him to give us the grace of this portion of His character. God please give me a little of your absolute hatred of sin, that I might annihilate it from my life. Is it wrong for a person to pray this prayer or stupid for them to pray it? Is it wrong to actually want to possess this characteristic? If you don't want to, you don't have to. But is it wrong for someone else to want it?
Wilderness Voice
Last edited on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 03:53 pm by Wilderness Voice
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guitarist63
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Posted: Sun Nov 11th, 2007 04:01 pm |
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Wildernessvoice, you presume that people such as myself have not already prayed this prayer you state. How dare you presume to know what I pray to God concerning my sins.
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Sun Nov 11th, 2007 04:10 pm |
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Guitarist,
I was definitely railing against B, but not against you. I can understand why people would appreciate what B said inspite of the countless mistakes B made in both quote and content. It is what is purposefully left missing that is appalling. God will not beat the repentant sinner over the head. But He will purge, prune, try, test, chastise, and tribulate His people into correction. This is also in the Testament, new and old. To leave these parts out when trying to instruct people who are in bondage to sin is unconscionable. It is these very truths that people in bondage to sin desparately, desparately need to know, understand and digest to set them free. Being forgiven is a most precious gift. But freedom from sin is also a very precious gift. Both are won by our Saviour, but both are not administered in the same fashion. To cut people off from the purging of God is to deny them access to the victory that Christ has waiting for them. The enemy of our souls is at work to block all of God's children from their victory in Christ and we have no business assisting him.
WV
Also, was not presuming this of you at all. Really, I have no idea what you pray and wouldn't think that you didn't. I was responding directly to Tim's observation that hating things was somehow not very good, at least not for him.
Last edited on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 04:16 pm by Wilderness Voice
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guitarist63
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Posted: Sun Nov 11th, 2007 04:55 pm |
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WV
Firstly, I wish to apologize for missing the mistakes in B's post. I have amended my previous post above accordingly.
I took your observations about hating sin to be a personal attack on me for which I apologize. I often misunderstand people.
Only Jesus is wholly righteous and we (Christians) are made righteous by faith in Jesus Christ. We will have occasions to sin before we die. Do you think you would be let into God's Kingdom if you had sinned just once? One sin would be enough to keep you and the rest of humanity out. It is only because Jesus (who is God - the Word that called forth all creation) has offered Himself as a propitiation for sins that we, who repent, who turn from our sins, are able to come before God, not at all owing to our righteousness for we have none. It is the righteousness of Christ that clothes us and makes us able to stand before God.
Don't assume that posters here do not agree with you. Don't consider yourself an island here. You are not.
Last edited on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 09:07 pm by guitarist63
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TimM
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Posted: Sun Nov 11th, 2007 05:18 pm |
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WV,
Perhaps I should be more willing simply to accept that you and I profoundly disagree and to stop looking hopefully for common ground.
On hatred, I'm actually more impressed by how rarely the Bible tells us God hates anyone or anything - twice in the NT and a dozen times in the OT, by my count. We're told a few more times to hate, but even then the message seems not very clear to me. The gospels tell us we have to hate our brothers, for instance, and one of the epistles of John says we mustn't. One of the things I find jarring and un-Biblical in reading the Qur'an, by contrast, is how often we get told, "God hates those who . . .", a phrase that turns up, I forget, a hundred or 200 times in a book the size of the NT. The Bible instructs us how to love and whom to love much more than how or whom to hate, while the Qur'an does the opposite. That's something I like about the Bible.
Is it OK for others to hate? Sure, be my guest, if it works for you. I've tried (and probably not succeeded) always to share my own experience here while acknowledging that others' experience may be different. For me, and perhaps for some others, grieving over our sins and the actions of others seems appropriate, but hating both divides me from my brother and separates me from my own actions in a way that doesn't invite me to look calmly and honestly at myself and to find wholeness. If I rage against sin, I fail to see that the seeds of sin are within me, in a part of myself I need to accept and to surrender to Christ. To me, this seems important, and I'd like to propose a path of grief and love and acceptance that as a possible way. Plainly I am in no position to advocate a universal way for everyone; and if for others, the path of hatred is the way to life, then may they find peace and joy there.
On hatred, though, we'll probably never agree. I don't want hatred of sin, but grief over sin, and love of God.
On the middle ground between hate and love, I think it is not fair to my own experience to view myself as acting rationally based on a single will. My experience is closer to that of St Paul in Romans 7:15, "I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate." As always, I can't speak for others, but for me, this condition of simultaneously loving something yet being unable to do it, and hating something yet being drawn back to it time and again is a more accurate description of myself as an active addict than is the notion that I purely loved my sin. Seeing both these sides of myself as parts of me to be accepted and turned over to Christ for healing, with a goal of one day possessing a whole and unified self, seems to me the right description of my own process at the moment. What I am doing, and what is keeping me sober and bringing me joy, is not redirecting an already unified will, nor is it working to hate and demolish a part of myself. Again, if others find other roads to new life, may they walk them with joy and serenity.
It's clear that you and I are very different people, WV, and that we are walking very different roads. I'll take your advice and stop minimizing our differences. My hope is that there is room for different understandings here, and that both of us might be able to share visions that might be useful for some. If that's not true, and if your view fits here and mine does not, then I'm completely content to step aside without rancor and leave you to your way and to this board.
Tim M.
Added a moment later: In passing, in response to the last couple of posts, which I've just seen, WV has been completely fair in conjecturing that I would not be happy with his prayer and that I would not pray it. I don't see where we are called to show perfect hatred, and I do see where we are called to show perfect love. How others choose to pray is a deep matter between them and God on which I of course have no opinion. But if it helps smooth things over between guitarist and WV, WV has accurately identified a place where he and I differ. I think he was talking to me with that prayer, and I'd invite others not to take it personally. It doesn't offend me.
More and more it is clear to me that inviting myself into so complicated a piece of personal theology was perhaps unwise. I'd be more than happy to slip out, having said my piece about my own thinking with no intention of converting WV or anyone else who may disagree.
Tim M.
Last edited on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 06:20 pm by TimM
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Man
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Posted: Mon Nov 12th, 2007 02:33 am |
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Wilderness Voice wrote: Tim,
I had the self-hatred, loathing, and horrible shame myself. I used to hide everything from others thinking that no one could love me like this. And it did no good. But neither was I able to see the deeper depths that led me to, not the hatred of myself, but the hatred of the sin. It is the sin that should be hated, not the person God would have us to be. God didn't love me with the sin - He loved me without it. He saw the person He created me to be in chains of pain and suffering and beat the other away from my soul. I too felt deeply loved by God, but loved enough to get a spanking even though I thought all I needed was to be enfolded in consolation. But God gives that also, it just has a lot more affect if administered after a chastisement - which scripture tells us yields the fruit of righteousness.
If I got this one, I would feel quite irritated. I feel that WV speaks from above and explains..
I am sorry if I offend anybody. Just my thoughts. I feel it happens quite often that people speak from above and explain me things with a "big smile" and kindo "Oh poor you, have not understood anything". I can be very irritated.. Maybe I have not understood why people do that, so maybe I can learn something now?
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TimM
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Posted: Mon Nov 12th, 2007 03:47 am |
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Man,
WV and I are working with mixed success to understand one another, and we don't agree on some pretty basic things, but I'm not taking offense at his comments and concerns. Really, though, we're having enough difficulty right now even without help. 
Tim M.
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B
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Posted: Mon Nov 12th, 2007 05:33 am |
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B wrote:
In the Third Chapter of the letter to the Romans, St. Paul writes that "None is righteous, no not one." We have all sinned, we have turned aside, we have become worthless. We don't even seek God.
This is the reality of sin. We are "brought forth in iniquity" and were conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5). "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"(Jeremiah 17:9)
Like David, we know our transgression, and our sin is ever before us. (Psalm 51:3)
**************
This is the working of the Law. God's holy word acts as a mirror to show us the ugliness and dirtiness of our faces. However, we do not end at the Law. The law does not justify sinners. The law beats sinners down. It shows us who we really are: fallen creatures, meriting God's eternal wrath. We cannot stop with the Law if we wish to overcome. The Law is not the way out of sin. All that the Law does is show sin for what it is, and it breaks us when we see our imperfection. Therefore, we don't stop here. This is not the end of the story, it is only part of it. "For by works of the Law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."(Romans 3:20)
***************************
We are grieved to know that we continue to sin. We are grieved even more when we realize how gracious our God is. We trust in Christ and his finished work. This is the only way to freedom from sin. Our own works are filthy rags. Christ's work has been accomplished. We are forgiven, and we are at peace with God. We are free from sin and death.
Let us not fall into the temptation to look at ourselves rather than Christ. Look into the mirror of the Law and it will show you your ugliness. Take this ugliness to Christ, who has already taken it upon himself for you. Say, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner"(Luke 18:13).
And from my second post:
"Why not beg forgiveness from God right after sinning? When we are remorseful after sinning, why not tell God that we regret what we did? Why not beg for forgiveness?"
(Emphasis added to all of the above quotes for the purposes of this post)
WV, I never said we shouldn't feel quilt for sinning, as the above quotes from my original post prove .You are misrepresenting me by claiming I said we shouldn't be grieved by our sins. I never said we should have no remorse for our sins; the above quotes show this. There really was no need for you to get all up in arms. You are bent out of shape about a view that I neither hold nor espouse. I am going to go no further on this point; my original post speaks for itself.
WV makes an excellent point when he says that a hurting wife isn't going to want to hear that "it's o.k. because Jesus forgave him". This is not the gospel, but an excuse to sin. It doesn't' change the fact that sin is sin. Although her husband's sin will grieve her, just as our sin continues to grieve God, she too is a forgiven sinner. Sin is messy. Just because we are forgiven doesn't mean that the mess goes away. Our forgiveness means that we are no longer condemned to Hell for our sins. It does not mean that the mess we have created by sinning goes away. People are still hurt my our sins, even though they are forgiven. I agree with TimM when he says "They [spouses of addicts] are free agents, and we as addicts need to behave with humility and to accept their freedom to act as they see fit."
I believe that God is holy and imparts holiness on his people. In my original post I stated:
"We rejoice knowing that God clothes our nakedness in Christ. We are not perfect, but Christ's perfection is attributed to us. This is not due to any good works of our own. We didn't even want God's grace in Christ. God gave it to us anyway. He came down from heaven, was born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilot, was crucified, died, and was buried; and the third day he rose from the dead. ALL OF THIS FOR YOU! "
We are grieved by our sins as Christians. We are grieved even more to know that Christ has died for us and we continue to sin. As Christians, we do overcome our sins, but that stems from the Cross. It is not by our trying really really hard that we over come. We overcome because we see that we have been forgiven, that Jesus was tempted in our place, and that our sin has been paid for. God works in us through his holy word to brink about obedience to his law.
We see on the Cross just how serious sin is. God isn't some jovial grandfather in the sky. He is not "nice". We are FORGIVEN, not looked over. Our salvation was very costly. It cost Jesus his life.
Faith without works is indeed dead. Our works are God's working in us. We do good works knowing that we have been forgiven. We forgive others and lavish them with love, just as God has done to us.
All that I was doing was echoing St. Paul when he said "Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?Thanks be to God in Christ Jesus."
TmM has an excellent point when he says "To me, this seems a complicated question, one to which I'm not sure there is a single answer applicable in every situation". It is important to point out that some people do need to be bashed over the head with the law. Those who are proudly sinning and are not repenting. However, the people in these forums are definitely not in that camp. Look at the introduction forum, and you will see people broken over their sins. For goodness sakes, there are guys there talking about chemical castration. In my own past, I have beaten my self up (figuratively and literally) over my sins. I don't think that sex addicts need to abide in a state of self loathing. Many are grieved by their sins in an unhealthy way. These are definitely not unrepentant sinners. They are grieved by their sins, and need Christ. I had this audience in mind when I spoke of free forgiveness in Christ. I was not speaking to proud, unrepentant sinners. TimM spoke more concisely and eloquently than I am capable of on this very topic; see his post.
WV, I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say "But He will purge, prune, try, test, chastise, and tribulate His people into correction."
guitarist63, I thank God greatly that he has used me, his unworthy servant, to bring you the comfort from the Gospel that he has also reveled to me! Thanks be to God! Don't take your eyes off of Christ. He has made an end to your sin and your death.
TimM, you are a theologian of the cross and very eloquent. Be my guest stepping into this topic!
There was talk about me misquoting somethings, however I never saw any explicit address to specific instances. Would someone care to point out my misquotations that I may recant?
God's blessings,
B
Last edited on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 06:20 am by B
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O Christ, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world. Have Mercy upon us.
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