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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 05:07 am |
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I can remember reading Bible verses which speak of a "marriage covenant" - so I infer from this that there must be some promises made by each spouse.
I have searched for a place in the Bible where these specific covenant promises are listed, however I haven't found such a passage.
Also when Jesus speaks of "What God has joined together" I think we infer he is talking about a couple who have participated in a marriage ceremony and have each entered into their covenant promises - which I think we would say are spelled out in the vows they agree to during that ceremony.
I have searched through the Bible looking for a place where we can see exactly which unions of one flesh qualify as being ones which God has joined together. I have not been able to find any passage where such is specifically described.
I am surprised because I know the apostle Paul has said marriage is an earthly picture of the heavenly reality of the relationship between Jesus and his bride the church. Because of this I would think there would be specific information about both the vows (terms of the covenant) and the kind of ceremony God accepts and blesses.
I believe the following is at least very close to the vows I agreed to on my wedding day.
I, ________, take thee ______, to be my wife/husband, and before God and these witnesses I promise to be a faithful and true wife/husband."
"Will you, _______, have _____ to be your wife/husband? Will you love her/him, comfort and keep her/him, and forsaking all other remain true to him/her as long as you both shall live?" ("I will") (Repeat)
"I, ________, take thee ______, to be my wife/husband, and before God and these witnesses I promise to be a faithful and true wife/husband." (Rings)
"With this ring I thee wed, and all my worldly goods I thee endow. In sickness and in health, in poverty or in wealth, 'til death do us part."
I warn you in advance - I can understand how my honesty in sharing below how I have really felt, may not be very well received. However, I think it something I think should be brought out in the open - as I would like to hear if this has been a stumbling block for others - and if so, how did you get past the bitterness?
There have been times I have felt unjustly accused of "betrayal" and "cheating". I could understand that if I had broken a specific promise I knowingly agreed to. However, I was not aware my vows involved me making a promise that I would not do what I have been accused of doing (see my previous posts for specifics).
After reading quite a bit here - especially posts directed to me personally - I'm wondering if it might be appropriate to infer from scripture that something like the following should be included in marriage vows used in a Christian wedding:
(warning - this is hyperbole - please understand I am just trying to help you understand how I have felt)
I will never willingly allow myself to experience any type of sexually enjoyable feelings aroused either directly or indirectly by any person other than this my spouse. For the purpose of this vow I recognize any sexual enjoyment considered as "outside of my marital limits" to be including but not limited to any specific female or even any generic representation of the female form - (other than my wife) - who for any reason might appear within my personal proximity, or within range of my eyesight via any photographic image or even via any mental remembrance. In addition, I will strictly monitor any sexual advances I may be tempted to make toward my wife and endeavor not to let her know of any supposed needs I might feel I have - unless and until such times when she has given clear indication she in the mood for such and when I have done nothing which in her sole discretion might be considered as pressing her towards possibly feeling she is being used as "an object". OK - we can now turn hyperbole mode off.
I am basically saying I think most churches today are not making it clear enough to the couples who are married in their buildings, just how comprehensive the church considers their vows to be.
Sometimes I think we do not think enough before saying someone is "cheating", especially given we did not provide the couple with specifics to clearly lay out the extent of the promises we say are involved in their marriage covenant agreement.
I would not have posted this except my understanding is that I have been publicly told I am welcome to discuss here even reservations I have about what scripture clearly does (and perhaps may not) specifically say.
I look forward to reading your comments - I am highly motivated to be able to believe the Bible is clear enough so it can be used to change a whole culture where men were previously hurting their wives (in masse) into a culture where that is reversed. Eventually I may share a couple of tragedies that have hit me very hard - these I think may have been avoided if only I would have known of some clearer and more specific Bible passages (and ongoing consistent themes) dealing with the way God wants husbands and wives to relate.
My personal pain drives me to ask these types of questions and make these types of statements.
-DennisLast edited on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 07:59 am by dennis1soil
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 08:52 am |
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Though I am very weary, I don't seem to be able to sleep because I think I should quote someone else who has used hyperbole.
I'll reply to the below statements as a starting point to ask my questions and make my comments in response to this quote:
... This is what Jesus said
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matthew 5:27-28
Here you are missing a key word, and that word is looketh. When you look at a women "generic" or not and lust it is sin, it does not say it is like committing adultery, it says you have committed adultery. Maybe this is why when we are women find out that our husbands have been viewing porn we feel like we have been cheated on, why? because we have been. Pure and simple. ... (When I copied the above, the emphasis originally applied in the Bible quote was removed - another change is that I have added the bold emphasis to to highlight specifically what I am replying to).
Below I will copy the same verses (in NIV) and in addition the next 2 verses in order to draw attention to the context just following those earlier quoted verses. Here are my questions: Is Jesus using hyperbole in Matthew 5:29-30 ? If so, is it likely he could have also have been using at least a little hyperbole in his two previous sentences?
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
One of my daughters attended Pensacola Bible College for 1 year. While she was there she learned of fellow student who had gouged out one of her eyes (I never learned if it was the right one). That college is famous for taking the Bible literally, yet I believe even the administration there did not think the girl had interpreted Jesus' words correctly - I suspect they may have used the word hyperbole when talking with the other students following that "incident".
Now I am not suggesting that lust (by whatever definition Jesus intended) is not a sin and/or is not a very bad sin. What I am willing to consider however, is whether there is some difference between the kind of Adultery where, as the apostle Paul puts it, the two have become one flesh - in contrast with the kind of mental adultery I think Jesus was referring to in Matthew 5:27-28.
It would seem to me consistent if a wife considers her husband's lustful look to be equal to full body physical adultery, for her to also consider it appropriate for her husband to gouge out his (right) eye and/or cut off his right hand.
I'm just trying to say that I think sometimes in scripture - similar to how teachers sometimes speak and write today - hyperbole may have been used to drive home the major importance of a key point.
- Dennis
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Tears4Us
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 01:38 pm |
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I, ________, take thee ______, to be my wife/husband, and before God and these witnesses I promise to be a faithful and true wife/husband."
"Will you, _______, have _____ to be your wife/husband? Will you love her/him, comfort and keep her/him, and forsaking all other remain true to him/her as long as you both shall live?" ("I will") (Repeat)
"I, ________, take thee ______, to be my wife/husband, and before God and these witnesses I promise to be a faithful and true wife/husband." (Rings)
"With this ring I thee wed, and all my worldly goods I thee endow. In sickness and in health, in poverty or in wealth, 'til death do us part." Let your yes be yes and your no be no....Were these your vows?
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Tears4Us
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 01:40 pm |
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(When I copied the above, the emphasis originally applied in the Bible quote was removed - another change is that I have added the bold emphasis to to highlight specifically what I am replying to).
Below I will copy the same verses (in NIV) and in addition the next 2 verses in order to draw attention to the context just following those earlier quoted verses. Here are my questions: Is Jesus using hyperbole in Matthew 5:29-30 ? If so, is it likely he could have also have been using at least a little hyperbole in his two previous sentences?
Take note, I removed nothing to make the scripture say something it does not. I only made a few words bold, words I felt were being over looked. I will brake this down using original text today if I have time.Last edited on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 01:41 pm by
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truthseeker
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 02:04 pm |
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Hi Dennis,
1 Cor. 7 speaks a lot about the physical relationship between husband and wife. DO NOT, however, hold it over your wife's head, because only the Holy Spirit can show her if she has not fulfilled this.
Yes, I believe verses 29-30 are hyperbole, but I do not believe that 27-8 are. I believe that Jesus is pointing out, as he had with hate/murder, that sin is not only the action, but the root attitude of the heart that leads to the action. Thus, I believe that He employed the hyperbole of 29-30 to emphasize how crucial it is to guard our hearts.
TruthSeeker
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TimM
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 02:35 pm |
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Dennis,
Could I shift the conversation in a slightly different direction than it has gone so far?
I'm not from your flavor of Christianity, and I'm not in any way an expert on the development of the marriage service in the Latin West. I can't offer you much on the biblical basis of the details of the vows you entered into.
Instead, I'd like to turn the question to you, and to your understanding.
In your post here, as in some earlier ones, you again make it sound as though you feel somewhat unfairly trapped by expectations of others that you do not share yourself. That's what I get out of statements like
"There have been times I have felt unjustly accused of 'betrayal' and 'cheating'. I could understand that if I had broken a specific promise I knowingly agreed to. However, I was not aware my vows involved me making a promise that I would not do what I have been accused of doing."
and
"I think most churches today are not making it clear enough to the couples who are married in their buildings, just how comprehensive the church considers their vows to be."
(Incidentally, you talk about what you were accused of doing, not what you did. Is there dispute about your actions? What stops you from owning your own behavior?)
I don't think that disagreements within your family about what is and is not acceptable and loving behavior are likely to be solved by Bible verses or by references to vows many years ago that you do not even remember. I think they will be solved by loving and intimate talking and listening with your wife now.
So rather than a legal brief about what the vows saud and the Bible said and what each should say, I'd be more interested in hearing you discuss questions like
- What do you think should be acceptable behavior in a marriage?
- What does your wife think?
- If you disagree, then do you have sufficient love to be able to change in order to stop causing pain, or is your love not that great?
- Are you currently behaving in ways that at least you, yourself, think are appropriate, and do you have clear plans and clear support to enable you to continue to behave that way? If not, what can you do to live in integrity?
As before, I may be reading badly, but what I am hearing is that your wife is in pain and that you believe she should not be. If that's so, then winning a debate case about vows won't solve the problem. Working together with her and probably with a third party as a counselor and seeing whether you can grow closer in love is the way out.
For me, the bottom line is this: If my actions cause my wife pain, then I have to change my actions. If I cannot change my actions, then maybe I have a larger problem than I want to admit, a problem of addiction, and I need to find help to change my actions. Does this seem like a realistic analysis, or am I missing something?
Tim M.
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Tears4Us
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 02:45 pm |
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Very good post Tim. Welcome back
Dennis we are here to help, as Tim has stated debate will not help the problem. This is not really a debate forum. What you will find here is caring people that want to help and sometimes the truth hurts, but believe me when i say it is done in the uppermost love. I would also like to hear your response to Tim's questions.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 09:50 pm |
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Tears4Us,
I remember reading in one of your posts something to the effect that folks are pretty tough skinned here - so I am going to forge on and post this. I hope this will not offend either you or anyone else.
Let your yes be yes and your no be no....Were these your vows? Yes.
One of my purposes for starting this thread is to show you why I am concerned that there are likely many men who are getting married these days who share the limited way in which I understood - on my wedding day - the key words you emphasized. I think before a couple decides to become engaged both of them should consider the kinds of things I am talking about in this post and in this thread. I think any wise couple needs to agree specifically about what they (both) think the words and phrases in their marriage entail -- and I think this discussion and agreement should happen prior to when they announce their engagement.
...
In my first post at this site, after the salutation, I began with the following words:
This thread you opened brings to my mind some "definition of terms" which I have struggled with - and it seems my wife has had a hard time understanding how I have understood the famous verse where Jesus talks about "LUST". Actually I think there are many terms that sometimes mean different things to different people and this "failure to communicate" I think is most likely one of the causes of so much of our relational pain.
I read all the words in that set of vows very carefully before placing them in the quote box.
I have been wanting to understand why I get the impression several of you folks who have responded to my posts - infer so much from words that I just don't think the average person would understand to mean all you apparently believe must be intuitively obvious. I have provided in previous posts reasons why I have understood the meaning of issues regarding sexual fidelity differently in various stages in my life.
Here in this thread I was hoping I would be able to read some explanations about about why your understanding is different than mine - I am looking for specific scripture passages to cause you to side with the meanings you feel are appropriate. Instead, sometimes you use the words in question all by themselves thinking that will help me -- (but without any accompanying explanation to help me understand why you think the words mean more - just rewriting the same words does not clarify anything for me).
Hopefully I am all wrong here, but sometime I get the impression perhaps you think I must be stupid since I've expressed any doubt about the true meaning of the key words.
I will do the same kind of thing I am asking you to do (i.e. explaining more specifically what in my opinion the key words/concepts could mean -- and even though I'm not sure whether or not I am being asked specifically for this personal information, just in case, I'll tell you not only what I think the emphasized words mean, but also whether I think I have kept the associated vow throughout the 33 years I have been married - both using the way I understood the meaning of the vow when I said YES - and as I think you understand it today.)
Let your yes be yes and your no be no....Were these your vows? YES - as understood below:
(I hope I would never say "Yes" to such a solemn vow -before God and witnesses - unless I felt I understood what was involved with I was saying "Yes" to.)
I fully recognized I was making promises "before God". And that, by the way, is the principle reason I started this thread - I was hoping someone would answer my question in regard to whether the church should do something to help young guys understand more specifically what they are promising, because I think if I understood the words in the vows as you understand them - then it is entirely possible that my wife may have been spared a lot of the pain I have subsequently caused her to experience.
I understood "forsaking all others" to mean never showing any sexual affection to any person other than my bride - and as far as I know, I have kept that vow (and I think if you were to ask my wife, she would affirm that) - also you could ask any woman I have ever been around. If on the other hand we are to properly understanding "forsaking all others" to mean I will not look at any photos of naked women - then I have not kept this vow.
I understood "remain true to him/her as long as you both shall live?" to mainly mean never to leave each other alone without providing help until one or the other dies. I guess the key phrase here is "true to her". To tell you the truth, I guess this is another area where it might help to clarify the vows - because I don't really know what this is supposed to mean. The main thing that comes to my mind is "True Blue" which to me means reliable. I think that is most likely the basic way I would have understood this phrase on my marriage day. Using that definition, I would say Yes. However, I suspect from a woman's point of view one part of "reliable" might involve what she considers as "being emotionally there for me". By that definition my wife would probably say I have not kept that vow. (Again, what each spouse expects based on the way we understand the meanings of key terms is of great importance to a relationship -- So why are there so few words and so few "for example" clauses in the Wedding Vows???
Currently, I get the idea our churches assume that a casual reading of the Bible (which is as far as most folks ever go) will be enough to insure both spouses understand things the same way. I have been in church all my life and I have read the Bible a lot, but look how messed up my understandings have been!)
OK, now to the phrase "faithful and true". At first, I probably considered it to be meaning just about the same thing as "forsaking all others" (see above), however at this point in my life - I think as I look back, it probably means more than that. So, even though I didn't see this when I first married - now I believe I must say I have not kept this vow. For more details on the reason I say this - you can read my most recent post (prior to this one) in the "Introduction" thread. The short version is that through both subtle non-verbal ways at first and then progressing to actual spoken words, I expressed to my bride repetitively how I didn't think she could change for the better in some ways (e.g primarily in keeping our house more tidy - however she also has felt I didn't think she was sexually meeting my needs, and I caused her to think she could never change and never come up to what I understood the scriptures to teach concerning her so called "responsibilities"). So, by doing this, (and I consider this to be extremely despicable), I see now that I was not "showing faith" in her.
Concerning "all worldly goods". Yes, actually she has always been the primary one in our marriage to decide how we spend all of our "worldly goods". (According to many Christian Radio personalities, I have been a wimp in this respect because they would say I have not really been the "head" in our family when it comes to how the income from my job is spent).
.....
OK - now I am exhausted again <smile> so I'll quit.
If you think I have been "beating a dead horse" here - just say so - and I guess we can let it lay there. Also - if I am offending you and/or you think I don't belong at this site - feel free to let me know that as well.
-Dennis
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truthseeker
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 10:57 pm |
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Hi Dennis,
I'm not sure what percent of churches are doing pre-marital counselling now, but I believe that it is much higher than when you got married. I agree that this is extremely important in order to make sure that everyone is on the same page, as all have not necessarily had the same biblical instruction, and worldly influences may have overshadowed what instruction had been received. I understood that I was not to have sex prior to marriage, but I had had little to no guidance about what constitutes purity, where one crosses the line in to impure territory before getting to intercourse. While it would be lovely to learn all lessons in the classroom, where we may or may not be truly paying attention, the school of hard knocks must sometimes be our teacher. The productive course now is to make sure that your church has such pre-marital counselling, and to share your experience as opportunities arise to benefit others. If-only Land does not produce joy, and it is unwise to dwell there at length.
As I am certainly no scholar in this matter, I hope that some of the books I posted in your intro may be of help.
TruthSeeker
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 11:02 pm |
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TruthSeeker,
Yes, I believe verses 29-30 are hyperbole, but I do not believe that 27-8 are. I believe that Jesus is pointing out, as he had with hate/murder, that sin is not only the action, but the root attitude of the heart that leads to the action. Thus, I believe that He employed the hyperbole of 29-30 to emphasize how crucial it is to guard our hearts. TruthSeeker
Wow! -- I can't tell you how much I appreciate you responding to a specific question I asked. And I respect the reason you give to explain why you hold the opinion you do). !!!
....
I have learned the hard way - the wisdom of what you said here:
1 Cor. 7 speaks a lot about the physical relationship between husband and wife. DO NOT, however, hold it over your wife's head, because only the Holy Spirit can show her if she has not fulfilled this.
What is your opinion of this statement: :
Matthew 5:27-28 speaks about something that hurts the relationship between husband and wife. DO NOT, however, hold it over your husband's head, because only the Holy Spirit can show him if he is guilty in this regard. By the way, in no way am I saying my wife has ever held that passage over my head. I suppose she must have her hope resting in a faith-filled confidence that the Holy Spirit will awaken me in His timing (even if some very good folks at this site didn't seem to be making to much progress in that regard).
.........
Actually, I'm not so sure about who is doing the work -- though I suspect the Holy Spirit may be using in various ways each of the people who have attempted to help me here. I think God works through humans some times as His Holy Spirit is ready to get the job done. I've been feeling my prideful spirit beginning to see how broken I am - I think my eyes are in the early stages of seeing my guilt and my responsibility for the unjust pain I caused my wife - she who is not only flesh of my flesh - but also a precious apple in God's eye, who He loves and is jealous to protect.
Yes, I have sinned against God and against my wife when I have allowed myself the pleasure of viewing photographs of other naked women. I believe this activity has been a sin for me, regardless of whether it technically falls under any particular definition of lust Jesus may or may not have considered to be applicable when he said what is quoted in the Matthew 5 passage. I have sinned even if for no other reason than the fact that I knew it hurt her when I continued doing it.
Thanks to each of you who has believed I am worth the time and effort you have used in your posts.
-Dennis
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truthseeker
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 11:36 pm |
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Hi Dennis,
You make an astute observation that we are much more likely to give grace to an unresponsive spouse than one with a wandering eye, though both are sinning.
TruthSeeker
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Thu Jul 12th, 2007 01:13 am |
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... we are much more likely to give grace to an unresponsive spouse than one with a wandering eye, though both are sinning. (bold emphasis mine)
Exactly!
When I saw the title to Mike's book and the word "Grace" associated with this site - I guess I was wondering if I could find any here. Posts like this make me think it could happen!
To be honest though, mostly I have felt sort of "pounced on".
Perhaps that's exactly what I needed (I can't deny that good things have happened in my heart since I have been here). It's very possible everything that has been said in response to my long wandering posts has been just as our God of grace wanted. I don't really know, and I'm not qualified to even speculate (I think I feel similar to the way I understood Tim to have mentioned in a post to me), I'm really not in any position to judge.
Well, today is drawing to a close - and I don't think I can take off any more time from work to work on my "stuff" (at least this month anyway).
Sorry I will probably have to leave so many of your questions unanswered for at least a few days anyway.
However - here are some highlights of where I now stand:
I am a sinner who has used porn and thereby hurt my wife (and our daughters) very badly.
Already - (starting when I finally "got it" about stealing hope from my family) - I have begun a new way of looking at what I expect from those around me -- nothing - I have decided to love them just as they are and to quit trying to make them rise to my expectation level.
I think it's at least possible that God could still be willing to extend Grace to me - but even if not I plan to be kind to my family anyway.
I certainly deserve massive punishment for causing so much pain to God's precious daughters.
It has been hard on me knowing that Jesus usually associates obedience with those who really love Him and He mainly provides assurance of his Love to those who show their love for Him by obedience (I learned this in the gospel of John and in 1John). I certainly don't have a very good record of obeying Him. Hopefully He will choose to extend Grace to me anyway. I will keep asking God for it.
Maybe there is a thread on this site somewhere that includes Bible passages which provide hope for such a sinner as I in regard to the possibility of receiving God's Grace. (I would have to really try to shed my skeptic's eyeglasses though in order to even believe those scriptures might be applicable to me). As so many times before, I will ask God again tonight to help me as I try to work alongside Him toward getting free from the sin that has so easily beset me.
Here is some good news - I have had a few weeks without even a desire to return to my old pig pen looking at porn. So I am sort of riding high with a bit more hope - and now after these last few days here - I can add on the hope side of the scale the fact that I'm now "owning" my sin.
Thanks again -- these last few days have been productive for me. I'm sorry if they have not been for you guys and gals. I didn't want my time here to be characterized like my relationship with my wife has been at times -- "Your pain, my gain".
As I read your posts, and written mine, at many points I felt a lot of hurt inside. I've even cried some, (and crying is something I haven't been able to do hardly any of throughout my entire life).
-Dennis
BTW - tomorrow is our 33rd wedding anniversary!
(So you guys can have a rest from reading my long posts!)
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Wilderness Voice
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Posted: Thu Jul 12th, 2007 01:24 am |
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Dennis:
I wrote the following before seeing your post above it and it does sound like you are trying to seek the Lord in this. Went back to edit to add this preface, but will still post the original. I know these things hurt and God knows they do to. Operations are often very painful. So please trust the Love of God. His Love is contained in all that He brings our way. I write to you also in Love even though it will probably feel like the cut of a knife. It is the wound of a friend and not an enemy. The enemy has wounded you with sin and deception. Let your mind be renewed in Christ. I and my wife are praying for you.
Wilderness Voice
Dennis:
You, like many of us prior to coming clean before the Lord, have been harboring sin for many, many years. You have made excuses for this and have not let the truth of these matters penetrate through your many defenses. Dennis, when anyone does this, not just you, but anyone, the right mind that would operate after the image of God, does not. You are not seeing correctly or thinking correctly and can no longer rely on your own carnal mind to scripturally interpret your way out of this. Your mind is continually returning the wrong answer and wrong impression to you because your heart is not right.
We are warned and warned and warned in the scriptures of the effects of sin upon us. Your heart becomes hardened, you believe delusions, the truth cannot be discerned because of sin's deceitful and deadly effects. It really, truly harms our ability to perceive and understand.
Ezek. 12: 2 . . . thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for thy are a rebellious house.
Jer. 4:13-14 . . . Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
Heb. 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
You must desire with all your heart to cast out down the sin in your life for God to make a move to repair you. If you love your sins, He will let you have them and a-plenty. He will even let your mind become reprobate - where it functions at a very bad level.
Dennis, fully understanding every jot and tittle of the marriage vows would not have worked for you. You wanted to commit and continue with certain acts and you did. You have followed what your heart wanted. The common marriage vows of a Christian wedding are based on numerous biblical concepts directly spoken of in the bible. They are a distillation of the basic Christian expectations and yes, most people do or should understand them intuitively. It is like our legal system and the laws governing public conduct. You may not be aware of them all or have been explained all the ins and outs, but I assure you, the judge will not care that you didn't understand the law when you are found guilty of breaking it. There is an assumption of conscience, of a basic knowledge of right and wrong. If you lack this, you have done something or had someone do something to you in early childhood that has altered this innate sense. Repeated and unrepented of sin alters the functioning of our conscience. This is why we are warned of the possiblity of it being seared with a hot iron. Lust can become this hot iron which destroys the proper functioning conscience.
I offer you a hyperbole also: the real honesty in marriage vows with someone who later says that they just never understood, would be for that person to have published a disclosure checklist of all the secret things they plan to continue or start doing in and out of marriage. This way their prospective spouse would have an informed basis for what to expect and could make a choice as to whether or not they wanted any part of it. This would be far more reasonable and fair then trying to anticipate what loopholes someone would try to find and then close them or to add tons of addtional language to cover all possiblities. But the above hyperbole is also an absurdity: it wouldn't do any good either, because a heart bent on achieving its wicked desires would find a way around all that.
Dennis, please, please, hear the Voice of God in what people are saying to you. Your soul is in danger and wavering on a fence. I speak bluntly to you because you have conditioned your mind to subtleties. You are looking for legalities, semantics, and definitions and are missing the Spirit.
Read what Jesus says to the seven churches in Revelation. Only one (Philadelphia) he commends; only one other (Smyrna) does he leave with what little they have, but even they shall face tribulation. Five! Five out of seven he counsels to repent or face a harsh and at times, terrible judgment. Have an ear and hear what the Spirit sayeth to the churches!
Love in Christ
Wilderness Voice
Last edited on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 01:35 am by Wilderness Voice
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truthseeker
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Posted: Thu Jul 12th, 2007 04:56 am |
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Hi Dennis,
Happy anniversary!!!
As you mentioned 1 John, try 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
TruthSeeker
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