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truthseeker
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 03:47 pm |
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Below I am pasting a number of posts which I have deleted from the accountability discussion, as they have strayed significantly from that topic. As long as the discussion remains civil, it may continue here.
For BG's position on any of this, please see the Terms of Service forum, as well as Mike's articles on the home page.
Any comments I may make in this thread will be strictly my own understanding of Scripture, and not in an official capacity as a moderator.
TruthSeeker
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truthseeker
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 03:49 pm |
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Man
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 04:43 AM
This might not be the right place to discuss this, but maybe it is okay:
Doubt: I am not sure whether I am a christian or not. This site is anonymous. Maybe I wouldn't
dare to say such things in all church communities if this
was real life.
I don't get it if we shall make an effort and do something to become christians. If it is all love, why
couldn't God if He exists take the first move. We
allways have to do something and I think it shouldn't be like that..? i.e. pray a prayer.
What if I don't manage to pray a prayer, can I not be saved then? Isn't it an effort to pray that
prayer? What if I don't manage to pray that prayer/ do
that effort?
I thought it should be a choice..? not an effort? So I can be very much against doing an effort.
Then I can feel that I am part in the salvation. I have
done some work in it myself.. I have worked it through myself. I can lean on my own efforts as
well? It might not be so safe.? One day I might not be able
to perform anymore.. what then? It might be safer if I have no work there..? Then I might feel
more relaxed and safe..? and I might be as well..?
Man
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:20 AM
Difficult with christian faith: What if I am not saved, eternal hell, that seems very difficult. What do
I have to do? What if I can't do that? Where is
my safety..?
I can think and think and think and think and then it can be difficult to do the practical duties in
life.
Sometimes I can feel that christianity is a technical thing. Did I do the right things? If no, then it
can be eternity in hell..? It's like being like thinking:
Did I remember the passport when out travelling? If not, then everything is a waste.. and then
maybe check again and again and being nervous.. It could
be that this is kindo ocd..
Another thing: Don't have a filter on my computer now. It might be smart to get one..? I can think
it is going good. I don't need that now and there are
so many sites that I will miss if I put on a filter with "white pages" (That means only some chosen
sites are allowed.) Donno what is smart to do here..?
Jay1954
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:30 AM
I believe as a christian that,God chose us we didn't chose Him. So if you have faith to believe in
Christ, it is a gift from Him. Even if we mess up and
look at porn He will not give up on us.
Man
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:41 AM
Thanks Jay
Man
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:46 AM
But why did He not chose everybody? It is difficult to understand such things..?
Jay1954
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 08:14 AM
Its hard to understand, I don"t know why. But the scriptures say that we need the Holy Spirit to
believe , and that before we were enemies to God.
Christ also said I have chosen you, you have not chosen me. Which gives me comfort because I
know He has a plan for our lifes. Even when we mess up and
think He is not around.
Man
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 04:36 PM
Hi guys, I might think that I am better than others, thinking I am more honest about doubt, that I
dare to say if He exists instead of only "God", that
I dare to say "God, if He exists" instead of only saying God.
So I might be proud , thinking that I am better than others.. looking at myself as a "prophet" and
all the self-rightous guys around me will scream and
shout and explain me "HOW IT IS". So there might be a price to pay to be honest among
believers...
But it could be that I am proud, lacking humility and love, thinking that I am better than others..
and it might be this attitude: "I am better than you. I have come further than you" that irritates me
so much, but maybe I have it my self..
Thanks
Man
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 04:49 PM
Other difficult things with christianity: Eternal hell. It is really difficult..
Man
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 02:30 PM
If it is all true with hell and God and everything, I don't get it why Jesus can't give people a chance
after death..?
I think it is difficult to get step one i 12-step-program: that I am powerless and that my life has
been unmanagable to live.. Maybe my escapes hasn't given
me enough consequences. Wonder if I have to destroy very much in my life before I see..
Maybe I don't really see it. I think I am quite descent or maybe I forget very fast...
I might be too much alone and maybe I am blind to how I use lust... it seems I am nearly all the
time using the eyes to fill the emptiness.. yea, it seems
it is nearly all the time that it maight fills something in me.. yea, again and again
Donno where to go or how it can be.. there might be some freedom and a better life somewhere,
but I donno how to get it..
because now it seems I am doing the same thing again and again...
thanks
Man
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 02:38 PM
Don't get it with hell. Why can't God if He exists give people another chance?
Step 1 in 12-step-program might also be difficult for me. Donno how much I have to destroy
before I see..?
Sitting and watching out of the street and it seems I am lusting every second nearly. Donno if this
can be different or not? I don't know.. I might need
to come to the point where I see myself as helpless.., the truth maybe? I donno.. I might be blind,
but don't know how I can see.. if it is possible..
guitarist63
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 06:41 PM
Hello Man, others here
I have been struggling with physical pain in the past few weeks especially because it's got much
worse but then in the last few days, it has got very much
better. A lot of people have been praying and I believe that their prayers have been heard and
God has taken pity on me.
God first and foremost to me is love. If He is love, He is incapable of hate, at least in a human
sense as we see it in divided nations.
There is a verse in the New Testament (1 John chapter 2, verse 2) which says that God has not
just saved the righteous but He has saved the whole world.
New American Standard Version:
1 John 2, verse 2 "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also
for those of the whole world."
I find this verse a great comfort to me when I'm battling, as always, with the problem of hell.
Man
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 08:45 PM
Thanks Guitarist and may the Lord bless you.
Man
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 08:47 PM
But it is important for me to say that I am struggling to know if God exists or not..?
TimM
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 09:14 PM
Friends,
I haven't been here much lately. Since the start of the year, I've been struggling both spiritually
and with sobriety. These are not unrelated. While
I've read a little here, I haven't felt that I had anything to contribute to others' recovery given the
pathetic state of my own. I've also felt that
I needed to focus on relations with people I see in the flesh, rather than with people over the net.
I think things are moving in positive directions for me right now, but I haven't been sober long,
and my spiritual life remains in an unsettled state.
My comments have to be seen in that light.
I'm also not an evangelical, nor even a Protestant. I'm purely a guest here whose opinions are
only my own.
All that said, I still would like to say something in response to Man's recent posts. I relate very
much to his struggles, while at the same time wanting
to be a polite guest and to stay absolutely clear of some of the drama that is often bubbling
around the edges of his and others' religious beliefs.
Man,
Here's my own take on hell. I have no idea what happens after we die. There are within the
church a variety of opinions on this question. Your questions
are based on what is probably the majority belief, but there are others. A notable example to me
is St Gregory of Nyssa, one of the architects of the
doctrine of the Trinity, and someone who practically defined and personified Orthodoxy in the 4th
Century. St Gregory also believed that in the end, everyone
would repent and be saved, even the devil himself. As I say, this is hardly a consensus position,
but the fact that someone of Gregory's enormous scholarship
and piety could hold this position is symbolic to me of just how little we really know for sure.
I'm pretty sure that everything we can say about what happens after death is a metaphor for
something that we simply cannot now understand. St Paul says
that now we see through a glass, darkly. I don't doubt that for a minute.
But I don't have to worry about those questions in order to live my life. The hell that concerns
me is the hell I lived in for 40 years and that I stand
at the edge of today. That hell concerns me a lot more than any theological or philosophical
speculation. I do a lot better when I stop worrying about
what may happen to other people after they die and start focusing on how I am living right now.
That's what's real. The rest is just words that distract
me and allow me not to face my own life and feelings here now.
In my life here now, here are some of the things I've learned.
I spent years feeling isolated from God, judged by God, hated by God, angry at God for what He
was requiring of me and of others and for the absence of
a transforming hope I could not find. Those were years alone, where God was not. In a very real
way, at least psychologically, they were years in hell.
When I finally gave up and sought out help from other people and from God, when I finally really
surrendered, then I learned something really amazing.
I learned that other people still loved me and were willing to help. And I learned that God still
loved me and rejoiced in my surrender. I learned something
about all those years that I thought God was judging me, hating me, leaving me alone and
without hope, all those years I was living in hell. I learned
that all those years, God was standing beside me, loving me in sorrow, waiting in patience for me
finally to have suffered enough that I could give up
the illusion of control and surrender to Him. All those years I was making my own hell, and when
I had finally suffered enough and become able to give
up completely, God was there in love from the first minute.
So that's what I know about my hell in my life now. I built it myself and lived in it for decades,
with God right beside me the whole time, loving me and
offering me a way out.
Is that how it works after death? I don't know. I cannot begin to imagine. But I do not believe
that the love that is reaching out to me now after decades
of spiritual death is stopped by time and stopped by physical death. How that works, I have no
idea, and I think none of us have any idea, though I repeat
that this is my opinion and that I respect the opinions of others who believe themselves better
informed than I on these matters.
I'm also pretty clear that I'm not responsible for what happens to others after death. I'm
responsible for what I do now. I need to act in love and honesty
and submission and joy, trusting that the God who makes that possible for me is also doing that
for all the others whose stories I do not know.
At this point in my life, I'm not even sure that on the deepest level, surrendering to what I
describe as an external God is different from what my Buddhist
and Hindu friends do in setting aside their egos and cravings to perceive rightly what is
happening at this moment and to act skillfully and compassionately
now. Perhaps love and surrender and openness are deeper than any of the words we use to
catch that reality, even the word God.
So that's how it seems to me. That's not the opinion of this board or of anyone else here. It's the
opinion of one weak addict who has struggled to maintain
the trust and surrender I've seen, who has allowed ego and pride and the pull of a familiar but
dysfunctional life to endanger all the blessings I write
about and know are possible. It may be of no use to you or to anybody. But it's something I
need to say to another hurting human.
Be well, Man and all.
Tim M.
love&hate
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 09:18 PM
Ok, we are kinda deviating from accountability here but these are some important issues. If you
want to understand more about Hell than you could study
it. I did i and i learned alot. Most Christians know very little about what the bible says about it. It
is a fact that we must die and after than be judged.
Some will be rewarded and some punished. I personally don't believe the bible teaches that
people who reject Christ will be tormented for all eternity
but that is the mainstream belief in Evangelical Christianity and if the topic comes up it usually
causes arguments and strife among the body. Seems like
so many things split us up which makes you wonder. If this becomes a debate here we should
start up a new thread so this one is not hijacked.
Anyway Man it seems like you have some serious questions.
Philippians 2:12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my
presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your
salvation with fear and trembling.
Sounds to me like you are seriously questioning your faith in God.
1) Does he exist?
2) Does he really love you? Even after you repeatedly sin?
3) Why Would a God that is "loving" allow people to go to Hell?
4) Why is it so hard to be a "Christian" and not lust/sin? Why can't God take away these desires if
he is so powerfull?
5) Why can't all people be saved?
I don't see this as a bad thing that you ask these things Man. Better that you do this rather than
just warm a pew at a church on Sunday morning and socialize
with others thinking that is all there is to being a Christian.
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.
All i can tell you is that if you read the bible and are desperate for God, he will speak to you
through it. If you are a Christian than you have the Holy
Spirit who amoung other things will guide you in truth. Many of your questions will be answered.
And yes even though Jesus saves and he "pick" us we still
need to do our part. If someone gives out a gift at Christmas the other person needs to receive it.
If he walks away leaving the gift under the tree and
never opened it then he has not received that gift or the blessing inside.
And i personally have no desire to think of all the things that i should do or should not do in my
day. I have no interest in religion. I have an interest
in putting a smile on Jesus face and want to make him happy instead of making him sad or angry
at the things i do.
Man
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 10:21 PM
Thanks guys
One of the things that I thought of now was the thing that I need to do something to be saved. If it
is pure love, it should only be choice or? not need
do perform, i.e say a prayer to be saved?
Thanks
Man
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 10:30 PM
TimM
wrote:
At this point in my life, I'm not even sure that on the deepest level, surrendering to what I
describe as an external God is different from what my Buddhist
and Hindu friends do in setting aside their egos and cravings to perceive rightly what is
happening at this moment and to act skillfully and compassionately
now. Perhaps love and surrender and openness are deeper than any of the words we use to
catch that reality, even the word God.
Tim M.
This seems to be a brave statement in here. I feel it is very easy to say the "right" thing to be
accepted. Especially the last sentence, I liked.
I also found the thoughts about that love suddenly stops at death, that is difficult to believe,
helpful...
I am not sure what is true, but it might be good to see that I am not the only one finding it dificult,
so that I don't have to feel very special
Thanks
TimM
Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 11:26 PM
Just for the record, I agree with love&hate that the discussion of hell and belief in God is a
digression, and I apologize if it's an inappropriate hijack.
I think Man's questions are important ones, though, and I wanted to give a reply, even if it is an
idiosyncratic one.
I hope, too, that we aren't starting a debate. I work enormously hard to stay out of debates for all
kinds of reasons, among them the fact that I am a
guest here and the fact that I speak with zero authority and the fact that I don't think debates
promote anyone's recovery. I'm much more comfortable
with the 12-step approach of sharing our own truth from the heart, thanking one another, and
then moving on, taking what we can use and leaving the rest.
I hope my words are seen in that light, rather than as in any way an invitation to a controversy in
which I won't participate.
Thanks, Man, for the friendly greeting, and love&hate, for the interesting thoughts.
Tim M.
love&hate
Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 01:48 AM
Oh by the way Tim i did not see your post when i submitted mine so actually i was responding to
Man and was not trying to insinuate that you were digressing
or hijacking. I am dissapointed to hear of your struggles as it seemed you were well on the way
to recovery.
Wilderness Voice
Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 08:08 AM
In Luke 16 Jesus said:
[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared
sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the
dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's
bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in
his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may
dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for
I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and
likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and
thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would
pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass
to us, that would come from thence.
[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of
torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be
persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
The Bible is filled with scripture about Hell and exactly why people end up there. There are
certain instances of people being released from at least some
part of it. There are other places that are clearly stated as being everlasting. And it is very much
too late after the final judgments are set. There
have been many times throughout recorded history that people have been allowed to visit Hell
and return. Their stories are filled with terror and horror
beyond description. The vision of Marietta Davis from 1856 as contained in "Scenes Beyond the
Grave" is one in particular. I would not read this unless
you felt very brave. But it does help to set one's perspective correctly. Also has the most
wonderful portrayal of Heavenly realms and is thus also quite
encouraging. It is available in print, but can also be read on-line at:
http://www.layevangelism.com/heavhell/book1-c.htm
WV
love&hate
Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 09:01 AM
The story of Lazarus is a parable. If you choose to take it literally than you must also accept that
people are either in torment or paradise as soon as
they die. It does away with other biblical themes such as the judgment and the resurrection. It
also states that Hell is a place where we can watch unbelievers
suffer forever and we can also communicate to them by yelling over a chasm. The bible is clear
from the book of Genesis to Revelation that the wages of
sin is death, not eternal torment.
I personally would take the word of God over other peoples experiences on the reality of Hell.
Man
Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 09:41 AM
I don't know what is the truth here, but only the thought of eternal hell for someone and the
chances for me might make me so sad that I can be tempted
to act out.. It might be a trigger to think about it. It might be too terrible.. and then don't wanna
stand in that.. too much, wanna get away from it..
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truthseeker
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 10:24 pm |
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Please forgive if this post is long and seems disjointed, as I am responding to many people's
posts. Also keep in mind that I am only representing my understanding of Scripture, not an
official position of BG, and I am certainly no theologian.
I am not going to try and prove the existence of God. Hebrews 11:6 says:
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must
believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him." NIV
Chapters 11 and 12 of Hebrews convey important truth about the requirement of faith in the
process of establishing a relationship with God. Faith, by definition, is belief in something for
which there is not incontrovertible evidence. The Bible declares itself to be God's inspired Word.
If we cannot believe what it says about Him, then how else are we to learn of God and His
character, and how He desires to interact with humanity? We can't just choose the things that
appeal to us from hither, dither, and yon, because we would each select different things, which
would contradict one another. Truth cannot contradict itself, so only one source can be true. I
believe the Bible to be that source. Some people say that the Bible contradicts itself, but I believe
that they simply do not understand the balance and interaction of such things as God's justice
and mercy, Law and grace, faith and works, and many other things. It is important to know the
entirety of the Bible so as not to be thrown off balance in faith by someone who quotes out of
context. By all means, call me on that if you believe I have done it.
The bad news is that Hell is real; the good news of the Gospel is that everyone has a choice as to
whether they spend eternity in Heaven or Hell. Satan, Lucifer, was an angel, created by God. He
rebelled against God's sovereignty, and lead a third of the angels in this rebellion. Eve, on the
other hand, was deceived by Satan, and was not being willfully defiant toward God. Jesus
described Hell as having been "prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt. 25:41-6. Jesus
describes it as "eternal fire," and makes it clear that He will judge humanity and divide them in to
two groups, some destined for "eternal punishment," and some to "eternal life." But God
promised Adam and Eve a Savior, so they would not have to be condemned with Satan, and God
fulfilled that promise in Jesus Christ. It was first faith that God would fulfill that promise that
brought salvation; now it is faith that that promise has been fulfilled that saves us. Jesus has
paid for salvation for all who are willing to receive his gift, but will not countermand our free will.
God's plan of salvation is clearly spelled out in the Bible. Just how many chances should we be
allotted? Since it is only faith that pleases God, not undeniable proof, and death brings us to that
point of undeniable proof, faith is out of the picture, no longer possible when full knowledge is
received.
God has placed a hunger for Him in our hearts. I refer to it as a God-shaped void that only God is
able to fill. Until we choose to fill the emptiness with God, even good things in our lives will never
completely satisfy us. Why is it that people who appear to have everything, materially speaking,
still are not happy?
Satan's sin was pride, thinking that he was worthy of the throne of Heaven, and powerful enough
to seize it. If we refuse to acknowledge the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, and thankfully
receive His gift of salvation, we conform to Satan's example of pride, believing ourselves equal to
or better than God, and will join Satan in his condemnation. God admonished Job in chapters
38-41, reminding Job of just who God is. Though believers have cause to bask in God's love and
grace, may we never loose sight of who God is in His entirety.
I do not see myself as being responsible for any individual's choice regarding Jesus, but
Scripture charges me, as it does all followers of Christ, to share the good news of salvation in
Jesus Christ, for as Paul reminds us in Romans 10:14, "And how can they believe in the one of
whom they have not heard?" I am responsible for making sure that people I encounter hear, but
not for whether they accept or reject what they have heard.
I already said that I am not going to endeavor to prove God's existance, so I will pick up with
question 2.
"2) Does he really love you? Even after you repeatedly sin?"
The book of 1 John was written to believers, and in 1:9 God promises that if we will confess our
sins, He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us from unrighteousness.
"3) Why Would a God that is "loving" allow people to go to Hell?"
Please permit me to turn this question on its head.
Why would a God who is holy and righteous send His innocent Son to endure crucifixion, one of
the most horrible forms of execution known to mankind, in order for any of us often ungrateful
humans to be completely cleansed from sin so He can permit us in His holy kingdom and
presence?
"4) Why is it so hard to be a "Christian" and not lust/sin? Why can't God take away these desires
if he is so powerfull?"
Salvation does not remove our free will. 1 Cor. 10:13 promises: "No temptation has seized you
except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what
you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so that you can stand up
under it." We cannot blame God for our own faithlessness in not taking the way out that He has
faithfully provided. If we deny that He has provided a way out, then we call Him a liar, and that He
is most definitely not!
"5) Why can't all people be saved?"
All people, whosoever, CAN be saved, John 3:16, but not all WILL believe in Him. God isn't going
to twist our arms. He has done his part by sending Jesus and facilitating His Word being
proclaimed throughout the world.
Yes, we have a part to play, a decision to make. Do we want to have a relationship with God? If
so, as with any human relationship, there must be communication and interaction between the
two parties in the relationship. God is in the business of adoption, not kidnapping. He has
already sent his love letter to us on the cross. If we never answer that letter, there can be no
relationship.
Yes, parents care for a helpless newborn, doing for it that which it is not able to do for itself. God
has done that for us by sending Jesus to die for our sins, placing a longing for Him in our hearts,
and giving us a conscience with a basic understanding of right and wrong. Then parents train the
child to do more and more for itself, teach the fine points of right and wrong, instruct in
appropriate parent/child interaction, and caution that there are consequences for wrong-doing.
God does the same through His Word. The young child may be obedient out of concern for the
consequences of disobedience, but hopefully, the older child obeys out of love and respect for
the parents, understanding that the parents have their best interests at heart. The goal is
maturity, being able to lead a productive life. God seeks for us to mature and be ready to be a
productive citizen of His kingdom. Would it not be ridiculous to see a teenager still nursing like a
baby, or kicking and screaming on the floor like a toddler? It doesn't matter how loving the
parents were when the child was a baby, if the growing child rejects the guidance of its parents, it
is unlikely to have an ongoing relationship with them, and will suffer the consequences when
unable to function as an adult.
While experiences of others can certainly be encouraging, it is Scripture alone on which we must
base our understanding of God, salvation, and eternity. Noone's experience imparts truth if it
contradicts the Word of God. Keep in mind that all the cults/false religions of the world were born
out of some human's vision/personal experience/revelation.
Here I quote a pastor writing about the differing words in the original languages that have been
translated as Hell.
"In the OT, the word for hell is Sheol, and it literally means grave.
In the NT, there words used are Hades, Tartarus/abyss, and Lake of fire/Gehenna.
Hades refers to the holding cell for human souls before final judgment described in Luke 16.
Tartarus/abyss is the holding cell for demons described in Rev 20:1-3 & Jude 6.
The Lake of fire is the Hell- the eternal home of the lost - both human and angel- after judgment
described in Rev 20:11-15.
Check out- Matthew 10:28- God has the power to
destroy in hell, not Satan. 1 Peter 5:8 - Satan roams the earth, he does not occupy hell (yet) (see
also Job 1-2). Mark 5:7- demons desire to avoid hell
at all costs. Revelation 20:1-3 one day yet future the devil (I believe he is representative of all
demons here) will be cast into hell (the abyss) for
1000 years and then, after a brief reprieve, Revelation 20:10 the devil will be cast into hell (the
lake of fire) and tormented forever. I'd conclude
from this that demons are not present in Hades, and will not have authority in hell, but will be
tormented like all other occupants (see also Matthew 25:41)."
Jesus usually stated when He was telling a parable, and/or explained its meaning to His disciples
later. Neither occurred in the Luke 16 passage about the rich man and Lazarus, so does anyone
who thinks it is a parable have a guess as to what it is a parable of--what it is intended to
represent?
I do not concur that a literal understanding of this story, souls being conscious of their situation
upon death, is incompatible with a later bodily resurrection and judgment.
There is only one way to escape Hell, and His name is Jesus. Sticking one's head in the sand
like an ostriche will not make it go away.
Please, however, do not just run to Jesus out of fear of Hell, but in gratitude and thanksgiving for
the sacrifice that He made so we would have the option not to be stuck there in our sin. God is
an incredible Creator, and is worthy of our praise and love.
TruthSeeker
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Man
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 01:15 am |
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For me those answers are not satisfying. I am not satisfied, thinking that it has been solved..
How do you guys deal with the feelings behind? There might come a lot of dificult feelings when dealing with this, thinking and thinking and thinking and then it might be tempting to escape from the difficult feelings and thoughts...
Wonder how to do deal with that?
You can of course say: Go to Jesus , but that seems to be very theoretically? Maybe Jesus if He exists, wants to answer through practical tips and proposals for what to do and that He wants to answer through some of you...?
Last edited on Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 01:22 am by Man
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Man
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 02:20 am |
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Truthseeker: Are you happy with the answers? Do you not find it difficult, After death: i.e. if it is true that nobody will get another chance?
I am not asking for correct answers, but hoe you deal with the feelings that come..? What do you do with the feelings..? How do you handle it..? Or maybe: How should I handle it? Maybe I can learn something..?
It can be tempting to act out if the feelings are difficult.?
Thanks
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love&hate
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 02:49 am |
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Thanks for doing this truthseeker and i am sorry for contributing to post hijacking. I knew i should have started a new thread when i made my response.
I am always caught between what to say in a situation like this. To debate and probably cause more division or just be quiet? I have no interest in trying to convince people that they should believe like i do. Also it is duly noted that people like truthseeker and wildernessvoice are much more mature in the faith than i am. So the purpose of this reply is not to argue with what has been said but to post a brief statement of what i have learned after studying this topic to those that may come here seeking for what the bible says about hell. It is not to convince those who believe in hell as a place of conscious torment.
The word "Hell" (a word describing eternal conscious torment) does not exist in the bible in the original hebrew and greek. When you read about Hell in the King James it is derived from:
Sheol -most people consider this death or the grave however some debate that there is a good side of sheol and bad side.
Hades - some consider this to be speaking of the greek word sheol, others disagree and think this is a place of torment before the final judgmen (due to lazarus).
Gehenna - a literal "garbage dump" that existed for a specific period of time not far from Jerusalem where refuse, dead animals and dead bodies of criminals where thrown. There where always fires burning and smoke arising included maggots eating away at the rotting flesh. However there is no record of anyone being tormented in Gehenna. Jesus often referred to this as a place of punishment or judgment.
Tartarus - only mentioned once and is a place designed for holding fallen angels.
Lake of Fire - mentioned in revelation and described as a place of eternal punishement where there is fire, brimestone and the second death of non believers occurs.
Unfortunately some english translations of the bible will take sheol, hades, tartarus and gehenna and translate them as "hell" insinuating that they are all places of eternal torment. That is incorrect. If anyone is interested you can go to biblegateway and search Young's literal translation. You will know then what the bible is talking about if your version just states "hell".
Some interesting points to ponder....
1) the theme of wages of sin is death (perishing, destruction) is repeated many, many times starting from the garden of eden throughout the NT.
2) the very first lie of Satan was that we can disobey God and we will not die....
3) the bible is very clear in that we are mortal beings and immortality is something that only God has presently and only we believers will be given as a gift. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection to eternal life. Stating that people will live forever in conscious torment is indicating all non believers have or will be given eternal life in hell.
4) fire is referred to as destruction in the bible (with the exception of purifying)
5) Jesus is the Creator and sustainer of all things. No one exists without God willing it or sustaining him. If Hell is eternal seperation from God how are these people being sustained? If God does not exist in Hell who keeps these people alive?
6) If Jesus is our atonement and paid the price by dying in our place (which should be our fate) does that mean he is in hell right now? If the wages of sin is not really death or perishing or destruction but actually conscious eternal torment than woud Jesus have to suffer in hell forever for us?
Well these are some of my thoughts. If you are convinced that hell is eternal torment i cannot convice you nor am i trying to. Rather if there are people in my positon that i was in a few years ago thinking... my bible really seems to be contradicting itself. Well i hope this gets you thinking and studying. The following is one of the best studies i have found on the subject.
http://robertwr.com/
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TimM
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 03:14 am |
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Truthseeker,
Thank you for taking such a lot of time to reply to this thread, and for finding it a better home than it had in its original location. You've been very thorough, and you know that I have enormous respect for you and for your thoughts.
Man,
Can I take a somewhat different approach? I'd like to encourage a more agnostic view about what happens when others die. In some ways, and rather delicately, I'd like to encourage or at least accept a more agnostic attitude about what happens when we ourselves die.
Let me explain.
C. S. Lewis wrote a very popular set of Christian children's books called the Chronicles of Narnia. There is a scene in one of those books in which one of the characters has met the Christ figure in the series, a lion named Aslan. ("Aslan" means "lion" in Turkish; Lewis was enormously educated and is full of little details like that.) She has been shown by Aslan how she has misbehaved in the past, and she has confessed her errors and been forgiven by Aslan. She then asks about another character - why has that person behaved as he has, and how can he become whole and be forgiven? Aslan's response is to say, "Child, no one is told any story but their own." (I'm doing all this from memory, and may have some details wrong.)
I agree with Aslan. Like many addicts, I struggle because I want to be in control of many things of which I am not. I want to be God. But I'm not, and I do much better to admit my ignorance.
My favorite story from the sayings of the desert fathers involves a monk who has condemned one of his brothers. The brother has done something wrong, and he has been judged by the monks and expelled from the community. In one version of the story he has died. The monk returns to his cell and finds the door blocked by an angel who refuses to let him enter. He falls down before the angel and asks why the angel has come. The angel says, "God sends me to ask: What is to be done with the soul of this brother whom you have judged?" I don't know of another story that says more forcefully to me that judging others is a matter far beyond my ability or responsibility.
I think that as soon as we start deciding in any way about God's judgement of others, we are trying to tell their story and not ours, and we do not know their story. I think we need to come back to our own stories, trusting a God who loves us to love others.
That's my argument for agnosticism about others' standing before God.
How can I argue for agnosticism about what happens to us ourselves after death? Partly the answer is that I have much more limited aims than some. I want to see you and me and the rest of the people here sexually sober. I want to see us happy, joyous and free. From my meetings and from reading, I'm convinced people find that freedom while pursuing a variety of religious paths. But I think that's only possible if we can really focus deeply on our recovery. I have quite enough to worry about finding a way out of the hell I have made for myself here. I have quite enough to do surrendering to God and trusting God with the obvious problems in front of my face. I don't need to do more.
Perhaps surrendering and finding serenity and sobriety will bring you closer to a God described by somebody here at BG. Perhaps it will bring you closer to a different sort of God or to no God. I'd be OK either way if you found sobriety and joy, just as I'm OK as a teacher if my students can do math regardless of how or whether they worship.
Before I got started into recovery, I knew a lot of theology and church history and such. I just didn't know God. By starting to trust God and develop a relationship with Him in order to find sobriety, lots of people end up deeply grounded spiritually. For you, I assume that grounding would be in Christianity.
So what would happen if you approached it that way: saying that the way we have lived in the past hasn't worked, that we need God's help to get sober, and that we had better start trusting Him? Might you meet a God who could answer the questions that are troubling you now? And even if you don't, isn't getting sober and mending relations with ourselves and others a blessing in itself worth any effort?
Just some possible thoughts, way late at night. Peace and freedom to all.
Tim M.
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truthseeker
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 03:20 am |
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Hi Man,
Yes, it concerns me deeply, especially as I have a number of older family members of whom I have no assurance that they have a saving relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Consistent with my believing the Bible to be the truth, that means that every time I read about Hell in the Bible I must picture it applying to each and every one of those I love who, as far as I know, have rejected God's free gift of salvation. I can hope that I am mistaken, but those who have found joy in Christ tend to bubble over with it, not hide it, at least in the free world. I walk the tight rope of continuing to try and talk to them about the things of God, and not irritating them to the point where they would prefer not to maintain an ongoing relationship with me. I have learned, however, that expending emotional energy on that which I cannot change, as per the serenity prayer, serves no purpose. The same goes for God's administration of the universe. I have no say in the spiritual laws God has established, and can only decide for myself how I will respond to them, so expending anxiety on the choices of others over which I have no control is futile.
I can question God, I can shake my fist at God, but that is not going to change the order that God has clearly laid out in Scripture.
TruthSeeker
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truthseeker
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 04:17 am |
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Hi love&hate and Tim,
Thank you both for your kind words.
Even here we may all be skirting the bounds of the forums, and I defer to the discernment of the administration.
L&H, you do ask some interesting questions, and I am not necessarily going to try and address them, or do further research at this time. It is enough for me that the promise of following Christ, which I deem to be a joy, is a wonderful and marvelous future in eternity. I would follow Christ even were the alternative "merely" annihilation, but someone will be weeping and gnashing their teeth, and their must be some purpose to those everlasting fires, and I very much prefer taking no chance at all that it could involve me.
TruthSeeker
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love&hate
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 05:09 am |
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I have no plans to try and "convert" people. I said it only since i thought there may be some that want to here it. I will not pursue this here as i don't think it is the primary purpose of this website.
I have also been very mad at God, at times when i read the old testament and there are injustices in my personal opinion that God has allowed or done to people that i feel like shaking my fist at God and say...why? How could you?
God has such a terrible anger towards sin.. it staggers me.
The good out of this is it balances the incredible love of God with his just anger. We tend to focus on his love more nowadays... mind you there is only so much anger i can take.
I would say the worst day of a non believers life is written right here:
Luke 13:27-28
If that is not a reason to weep and gnash... i don't know what is.
But you are correct in saying that first an foremost we are to follow Christ for our love and devotion to him. That is our focus.
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guitarist63
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 10:05 pm |
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I believe that hell is basically separation from God and the way it is described by Jesus in scripture and elsewhere in the Bible makes it clear to me that hell is not a nice place. The persons there are unaware of each other, so great is their personal torment. They are also able to see the righteous in heaven which must surely increase their torment. This is an eternal torment, as the Bible teaches.
Looking at how vile sin is, it's not unreasonable to believe that God and His Kingdom should be free from unrepentant individuals who persist in their sins and have no wish to acknowledge God. Why should God have such people in His kingdom? What trouble would they make for God and His people and His angels?
I've lately been so troubled by the reality of hell that I now pray for people I see in public places. Some I meet, exchange a few words with, others I don't. I pray for a blessing for them and I don't know of course whether the people I pray for confess Jesus Christ or not so I pray a general blessing and a prayer that those who do not already know Jesus Christ as saviour might come to know him very soon! There are millions of people out there and they're going to hell on a hand cart! Christians should pray for them. Pray for their salvation.
Last edited on Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 10:09 pm by guitarist63
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Man
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 10:51 pm |
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guitarist63
Why should God have such people in His kingdom? What trouble would they make for God and His people and His angels?
If He is Love, why shouldn't He, if He exists have all people in His kingdom and let them come in after death if they repented then? Why can't they get a new chance? Is it Love to close forever? I don't get it..
but it could be true and Love..? It could be that Love is not what I think that He is smarter and knows and sees more and other things..
i.e: Where does the Universe end? It is impossible to explain? That means that there also can be other difficult things to explain.. It could be more that one thing that I don't understand
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Man
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 11:13 pm |
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Thanks for your feedback LAH for the feedback about hell..
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Paulos
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 03:12 pm |
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Hello, Man.
God is Love, and Love takes the initiative to approach us. Love, however, seeks to evoke reciprocal love from us. It looks for a response.
During this present age the universe is still in process and our choices can still be modified. The age to come will be the permanent and irreversible state of all final choices. Divine Love has in store incredible happiness as the reward for right choices. It would not be loving to leave the universe in flux between good and evil for ever. God's coming kingdom, like God himself, will be all light and have no shadow whatsoever. Nor would it be loving to confirm human nature for all eternity in its present condition, a paradox of created glory and self-chosen corruption, without first giving an invitation to repent. Therefore Love asks us to accede in Its plan to redeem us before the time runs out.
"Hell" is the unavoidable outcome for any who, created in the glory of God's image, can therefore never be undone; but who de-select themselves from participating in God's plan, and therefore choose for themselves an existence apart from him who alone is Love and Light, an existence where there is no possibility of happiness.
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