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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 01:00 pm |
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I do believe God is helping me to grow a back bone.
I've dealt with this issue on and off for seventeen years.
Due to my own past, I am thrown into horrible and deep temptation because in my past I was raised in tit for tat circumstances. The desire to "pay back" in spades is very great. I was JUST getting to point in my life where I wanted to feel pretty - I've been hiding my sexuality for a very long time. I detest that my husband just flings open this door to sin.
We had a particularly ugly confrontation this last time. I was told, "if I was any kind of wife" and he prefers them to me among other things. In his opinion, those things don't count because he said them in anger. As if.
I've chosen to forgive him, but I seriously doubt I can forget them. This feels much too much like the last nail in the coffin.
In addition to these issues, he is a liar, a very good liar. I do not believe for one instant he has been faithful for the duration of our marriage.
I've given him thirty days to seek counseling. He insists I must make the appointment for him and then he will go. I've also told him HE will be dealing with his counselor and I have no interest in being involved in that area because I will know by his walk if he is doing what he needs to do.
I don't believe I should make this appointment FOR him because if he truly thought he needed help, he would make his own appointment.
I have my own appointment this week with my pastor's wife. I do not necessarily know if I should disclose his issue or not - thoughts on this would be appreciated. He is being considered for leadership, and I've already told him that would NOT happen.
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TimM
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 01:39 pm |
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Welcome! Sorry you need to be here.
If you don't mind an addict's opinion, let me make some quick replies:
Sure, he should make the appointment himself. He needs to be working to get better for himself, and it's perfectly reasonable for you to ask him to show initiative.
You say you've given him 30 days; you don't specify what the consequence is if he doesn't follow through. It's probably useful for both of you to be explicit about that. "I need you to start counseling so I know that I am loved and you are working on your visual adultery. If you can't show me that you are committed to working hard on your own to fix this problem, then I will have to protect myself by [filing for divorce, moving out, getting a police order to require you to move out, whatever]." The focus of the consequence has to be to protect yourself, not to fix him; you can't fix him if he doesn't want fixed. Then it becomes his choice - pick up the phone or suffer the consequences. Obviously a choice that he prefers divorce to counseling answers a lot of questions.
Should you talk to your pastor's wife? You need to do whatever you need to do to keep yourself safe and healthy and sane. It's your absolute right to seek out whatever help you need for support in your own problems. Probably that includes talking openly with someone, and if that someone is your pastor's wife, then that's your choice. Addicts' families often get caught in a mode of protecting the addict - and enabling his behavior - by hiding family secrets. I think this shame and secrecy is a big part of the way addictions pass down from one generation to the next. A big and important step in healing is reaching a point where you (and especially any kids you may have) are able to say, "I have a right to talk honestly about the truth of my life." I'm not saying to take out an ad in the paper saying, "My husband is a SA;" but to seek out supportive friends is your right as a human being. Addicts don't always like that, but a possible response by the addict is always to change the behavior and recover, now isn't it?
Just how it seems to me,
Tim M.
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truthseeker
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 03:56 pm |
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Hi Tropicalstorm,
Tim, as usual, brings much wisdom here. By trying to require that you make the appointment, your husband is attempting to place the responsibility for his addiction on you, where it does not belong, as well as continuing to deny his need for help. If he has not begun the process of getting help prior to the time a decision will be made about him being in leadership, I would definitely share this with the pastor's wife. He has no business starting leadership while in unrepentant sin, and probably shouldn't take it on while early in recovery either. This is not retaliation, it is protecting your church from one who does not currently fit leadership qualifications as given in Scripture. The Bible says that those in leadership should be the husband of one wife, in other words faithful to his wife, which he is not. And yes, he must be held accountable for what he has said in anger. Even words spoken in anger have roots somewhere, even if they are pathetic attempts at justifying his behavior. His words are daggers, cutting deeply in to your heart, wounds which can only be healed by God, first and foremost. The wounds to your marriage, however, can only begin to heal with his genuine repentance. God can heal your heart, even if your H chooses his addiction instead of the marriage, but God cannot make the two of you one in marriage without your husband's obedience to God's Word. After you have each had individual counsel, I would suggest marriage counselling together, to help the two of you grow together toward what God has designed to be a joyful union.
Praying for you...
TruthSeeker
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TimM
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Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2007 04:37 pm |
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I didn't address the question of church leadership, but let me do that now. I agree with truthseeker that now would probably be a bad time for him to move into leadership.
My own history is this: I taught church school for many years, and did things with my church's youth group. I never did this very well because I was at bottom too conflicted in my own faith and too isolated in my sexual sin to be very effective in this ministry, but I was an adult willing to do it.
At the point I began to be able to be honest to myself about my addictive behavior, I decided I needed to give up that service to the church. This hurt me, because my budding recovery was giving me a new faith and a new openness to other people, and I felt I finally had something real to offer. But the risks seemed to me to be too high. My addictiion never involved kids, but here I was attending SAA meetings and getting counseling and participating in on-line discussions on sexual addiction. What would happen if some parent saw me going into a meeting and naturally panicked - we have a sex addict teaching our kids. What's going on here? This could potentially have split the parish. It would have been frightening to parents. It would have cast doubt on the leadership of the priest, who of course knew my story. It could have put my whole family in a hugely painful situation. Now, the odds of this worst case scenario playing out are slim, but the costs would be so horrific that I could not justify taking the risk.
It's still a bother. My wife is driving a bunch of kids on a weekend church trip in a few weeks, and I'm staying home in order not to risk scandal. That's a pain. It's also the right thing to do.
I think your husband ought to be open with those making decisions about his addiction, and let them decide if they feel this is a barrier to whatever sort of leadership he is considering. I also think that he and the pastor need to consider what would be the effect of his status as an addict becoming public. That probably won't happen, but it could. I have been seen by members of my church going into SAA meetings. He might confide in someone and have confidence broken. It's important that he and the pastor or council or whatever be comfortable that he is safe with the people he is working with, and that they be at ease about any turmoil that might result from his being outed. This requires very careful thought by everybody involved, in my opinion.
In my case, incidentally, my priest encouraged me to continue to teach church school if I chose to do so, but he was understanding of my judgment that the potential for disaster was just too great.
Just my story, to be ignored if it is of no relevance to you.
Tim M.
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 12:37 am |
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I'm sorry I wasn't clear - I told him go to counseling or lose your family - I will divorce him without looking back.
This plunges me into a horrible abyss of temptation all my own and I am weary of battling that. Better to be alone then where I am now.
I feel the burden of knowin where he is and that he can not be in leadership. I would not do that to my church and my pastor as I respect them too much (ironic isn't it that I would tolerate myself).
I'll be talking to him later this eveing maybe, and will post the results if possible.
Thank you for your desperately needed support.
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Suzi
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 02:09 am |
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Tropical Storm,
I am so sorry you need to be here. For a wife, it's an awfully lonely place. Here we have given our lives to a husband who has promised to be faithful, whom we look to for our own spiritual guidance, and then... this! UGH!
I do encourage you to meet with your pastor's wife. I will pray that the Holy Spirit will give you wisdom and discernment in what you DO reveal to her, that you will have absolute peace about what you share. I think by confiding in her, you will hopefully have a strong ally for the future.
I guess I just have one word of warning... it's really not all that common (by my experience and the shared experiences of others) for a pastor, pastor's wife, or other church leadership to really be able to give you ALL the help you need. I go to a great church, have awesome pastors... but, they really weren't prepared to deal with "our problem" very well. I love them to death... still do! But... we ended up getting most of our help outside of our local church. And for us, that was hard.
So, yes, DO reach out to her with as much peace as you have about it, but I also encourage you to keep posting here and reading everything you can find to help you get through this. And maybe, just maybe, your pastor and his wife are the exception to the trend I have observed!
Please know that my heart goes out to you...
Suzi
____________________
Psa 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 11:47 am |
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Last night was rather odd, but I'm so accustomed to being lied to and manipulated I never know when to believe what I see and hear or not.
I sent him an email and asked/told him to pray for me as I was so very tempted. I did not go outside our marriage despite my needs not being met and situatins such as this made that very difficult to resist. I wasn't being snarky, I was being very honest.
I probably wasn't very nice which is very difficult at this time.
He said while we were talking who ashamed of himself he is, but then he continued to say how much I was at fault. I told him that frankly my needs weren't benig met either and I did not go to another man so that it was in fact a choice.
So I haven't figured out if it was a big pity party for him or if he was sincere.
Time will tell I guess.
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Fri Apr 20th, 2007 11:57 am |
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The meeting with the pastor's wife went really well. I told her I did not want him to be humilated or crushed. I know the kind of person he could be if he would just step up to the plate.
i haven't told him yet as he is out of town.
We'll see.
I feel better and not because now I know this will be dealt with once and for all.
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TimM
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Posted: Fri Apr 20th, 2007 12:41 pm |
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Good job! I hope he does step up to the plate.
Tim M.
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 09:34 pm |
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Well things are not looking good.
He said I had permission to do what I needed to do (which I know I don't need, just saying that's what he said). I shared with him that I'd met with the pastor's wife.
He is VERY angry - so angry he coudl not even talk to me.
He said I always make things out to be worse then they are - you know I went there to get help for me AND I resisted against full disclosure. These incidents (two this month) were not the first - there were times in february and january as well.
This is typical addict behavior I know.
He says he's never going back to church - his trump card, but what can he do to me now - the cat is out of the bag
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Suzi
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Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 02:03 am |
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Trppical Storm,
Don't let his anger disuade you from getting help for yourself. I remember way back before our first D-day, I reached the point where I told my husband (after him trying to minimize his porn problem):
"I know you say YOU don't have a problem, but it IS a problem for me, so I am letting you know I am going to get help for MY problem." HE may not think it's a problem, but if it's causing YOU a problem, then he needs to give you the freedom to get help.
I am hoping some of the guys respond to this. But I am thinking he is just ticked that you want to take his candy away from him. Not sorry for what he is doing, but sorry that you are wanting to ruin his fun. And if it's NOT wrong, if it's NOT a problem? Then why in the world would HE CARE if the pastor or pastor's wife knows? If it's no big deal, then why is he making it such a big deal?
I know in our case... it was six months of things just getting worse and worse before things started to get better. I hope it goes quicker for you!
Hang in there... And pray, pray, pray for your husband like you have never prayed before....
Prayers and hugs headed your way!
Suzi
____________________
Psa 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
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TimM
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Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 04:31 am |
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If you want guy replies, I'll try a quick one, but mostly I've sort of pre-replied (preplied?).
Obviously I think that getting help for yourself is completely appropriate.
I also think that anger from an addict to a spouse is never a good sign. I've caused pain for decades; I don't have a right to get angry at this point about much of anything. We get angry when we are trying to control others or to assert an imagined control over our own lives. We get angry because it's the only emotion men allow themselves to feel. We get angry to preserve emotional distance and protect our addiction. We get angry to make ourselves feel wronged and to give ourselves an excuse to act out. We get angry because we can't empathize and don't get it. I've done all those things, and done them a lot. They're not good for recovery.
To me, anger instead of acceptance and humility is a huge red flag in recovery.
It would be interesting to explore for yourself (and perhaps with him) why his not going to church is a trump card he holds over you. Why does he think (or why do you think) that you have a responsibility to prevent him from engaging in an act that is spiritually self-destructive? This sin't so different from an addict maintaining the upper hand by threatening suicide, is it? Does this really seem to him like acceptable behavior?
That's a pretty quick response, but I'll leave it at that. It's been a hard week for me emotionally. I was a student at Virginia Tech 30 years ago, with an office 100 meters from Norris Hall. I have really idyllic memories of the place, and they obviously are in stark contrast with the last week's events. There's no way really to understand this sort of tragedy, and I am just sitting with my feelings. As Nikki Giovanni said at the beginning of her address on April 17,
"We are Virginia Tech.
We are sad today, and we will be sad for quite a while. We are not moving on, we are embracing our mourning."
Tim M.
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 11:48 am |
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Well I'll take this as a "normal" (as if anything about addiction is normal) response then.
At least it wasn't ugly - he just didnt' talk to me at all.
Perhaps today will be better.
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TimM
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Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 01:24 pm |
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I guess my message wasn't quite that it was normal. It is normal for addicts to use rage as a tool for maintaining their addiction and their control. For him to respond in his old ways to a very stressful situation - and having someone else know about something he has been hiding for many years and about which he is deeply ashamed is of course stressful in the extreme - is normal, too.
These are, however, the normal reactions of someone who has not yet surrendered and committed to radical action to recover. We recover when we become ready to do anything and suffer anything to change the core of our hearts, and when we are willing to trust abd be open and ask help from others as part of that process. That radical trust and change don't go with enraged defensiveness and with passive-aggressive moves to control.
On the other hand, having his shameful secret out, and out among those people in front of whom he has probably worked hardest to seem moral, may well have been the most stressful and horrifying event of his life. Perhap one cannot read too much into the fact that in that moment he behaved like someone who is not yet planning to quit.
Tim M.
Last edited on Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 01:25 pm by
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Suzi
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Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 02:40 pm |
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What Tim posted about the anger response falls into what I have experienced. Your H is not a broken man about this. He is still lying to himself, trying to tell himself that he is a good person, that you don't appreciate what he DOES do but only notice this "little sin" that he only does occasionally. I am not saying this is true. I am saying this is likely his thought process.
My H did this huge song and dance, being very active in church, quite the leader, was a good husband, father, grandfather, and strived to excel in his job. He was awesome, except for his "little sins" like porn, sex groups, swingers meetings, and orgies he arranged. His justification for all this was unbelievable. It wasn't a matter of him not knowing the right thing to do, it was all about the warped mental gymnastics it took for him to do what he did and live the "normal Christian" life.
He had to go into protect mode and PROJECT mode, projecting on ME all the blame, all the justifications he could to continue the mental gymnastics.
Try to keep reminding yourself that this isn't your REAL husband! That his brain has been warped and twisted by sin. And deal with this as a sin issue, not just a marriage issue. The marriage issues almost needed to be put on hold in our situation until the sin issue was dealt with.
Keep praying like crazy. Think in terms of dealing with an alcoholic. When a person is "drunk with wine" instead of being filled with the Holy Spirit, what level of importance do we give to their rantings and ravings? none! And how does an alcoholic react to being forced not to drink? Well, the withdrawal is ugly. This may be the best picture I can come up with for your H right now. He is being "called on" his addiction, and he is one unhappy camper!
Prayers and hugs headed your way.
Suzi
____________________
Psa 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 12:45 am |
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What Tim posted about the anger response falls into what I have experienced. Your H is not a broken man about this. He is still lying to himself, trying to tell himself that he is a good person, that you don't appreciate what he DOES do but only notice this "little sin" that he only does occasionally. I am not saying this is true. I am saying this is likely his thought process.
My word - this is what he says verbatim...how odd.
I told him tonite during a brief discussion I would be praying for him....
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 12:17 pm |
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How does one best deal with an unbroken addict then?
I'm SO deathly tired of hearing about "his" pain and what I've done to him (Trust me, I have no doubt I need some work, but frankly, this is NOT the time for it to be addressed).
When we were in marriage counseling prior to this it was all about the pain I caused him and less so on the marriage issues. This time I've told him I'm not touching our issues until he deals with his.
Please give me insight into how I can just ignore him until he gets help. I"m tired of the snide little coments and blame shiftig. I am praying for him, but honestly, I don't know how much longer I can take this.
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truthseeker
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 02:57 pm |
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Hi tropicalstorm,
You gave him a deadline, remember? That is how long you would take it if he does not break and get help. I pray that he will come to his senses, and that God will give you wisdom and endurance, and anything else that is needed in order to live out these thirty days. Are you sure he understands that you are serious about leaving?
TruthSeeker
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tropicalstorm
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 11:50 pm |
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It's not that part of it - it's him constantly engaging me to make everything my fault.
I am tired of the barrage of verbal assult he throws on me.
I told him last night that if I had been as adulterous as he has, he would have left a long time ago (sad fact isn't it?)
I just want to be able to ignore him period.
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Suzi
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 05:02 am |
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Tropical Storm,
I think the word you need to think of is "DETACH".
Detach from the verbal attacks.
Change the way you are responding to what he is saying and doing.
It takes two to fight... don't engage. DETACH.
Now, I would preface this move on your part (if could design the better scenario) by encouraging you to have a talk with your husband at a good time.. pray about when.
Tell him that you love him, that you are grieved over the apparent disintegration of your marriage, and tell him what you are willing to do (go for counseling, support him while he goes to SA or other meetings, etc.) for the sake of your love for him.
But then tell him what you will NOT tolerate... that is blame shifting, viewing things that are hurtful to your relationship, him doing things that are anti-marriage (cheating).
Remind him of the deadline, and detach your emotions. Let him know you are prepared to follow through.
Yes, we wives are supposed to love and support our husbands, but it is not right when we enable them to continue to live in sin or continue to head down a slippery slope to sin.
So, I would encourage you to keep praying, keep seeking God's will for your every decision. Talk to your pastor's wife and ask her to pray for you.
Meanwhile, please know there are prayers heading heavenward from this board!
Suzi
____________________
Psa 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
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