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Praise6
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Posted: Thu Dec 15th, 2005 12:39 pm |
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Tears4Us wrote: How can it not be my fault? I have searched high and low and the only thing I can come up with is he is very unhappy with me. I can not be 20 and air brushed, and that must be what he wants, because no matter how many times he says he will stop he never does.
It is not a fault in you, it is a defect in him.
How can anybody be expected to look 20 and perfect forver?
I was 20 and perfect when I got married. My husband looked at porn.
I was 30 and still quite "perfect" and my husband still looked at porn.
Now that I am in my 40's with six kids in tow, he says I'm perfect and he doesn't look at porn. ? ? ? Is that any kind of sense? No because addiction makes no SENSE.
We had sex sometimes twice a day. I didn't everything he wanted in bed. I kept my self looking sexy with clothes, lingerie and starving myself. Still he looked at porn.
I will not keep beating myself up thinking that it is my less than his ideal of a women that warrented me to be treated that way.
It is hurtful, disrespectful and just plan mean to keep looking at porn when it clearly hurts ones' wife.
How can that be our fault?
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TimM
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Posted: Fri Dec 16th, 2005 03:58 am |
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Friends,
May I, as a male addict, risk contributing to this thread? If you'd rather I not, please just say so, and I'll stay out of your room.
It helps me to come here sometimes, though, to remind myself anew of just how much my addiction has hurt my wife.
In this thread, people have asked a lot of heartfelt questions, ones without simple answers. It's awfully hard to understand what sex addiction feels like from inside. What we do makes no sense at all, to you, or to ourselves. I wanted to try to answer some of the questions from my own experience, though, just to offer a window into the mind of one addicted husband.
Obviously, I can't speak for every addict, and I know some of my friends would say different things in some of these areas, but here is my experience.
Is it your fault? Not a chance. For me, it was never about my wife at all. She was beautiful and desirable to me at 20, and at 30, and at 40, and now at almost 50. And over almost that whole time, I acted out with porn. I am absolutely convinced that nothing she could have been or done would have changed that. She was always my image of physical desirability, and still I looked elsewhere and betrayed her in fantasy again and again. This, I think, really is true of all the addicts I know. You're not defective. We're defective.
Were there other people in bed with us, psychologically? My wife has said that, as one of you did, and I feel immense shame and sorrow. But for me, that was never true, although for some addicts it is. Whenever I have been in bed with my wife, there have been 2 of us there, period. I'm thinking then of her. I protected my addiction and harmed myself immeasurably by building up lots of walls in my life - between myself and my wife, myself and my kids, myself and my God, but also between different sides of myself. My wife and the porn lived in different worlds for me, worlds that didn't intersect. This meant I kept myself from seeing how incredibly hurtful my actions were, but it also meant that when making love to my wife, I was making love to her, not fantasizing about someone else. Not everyone has this experience - probably most addicts don't. But some definitely do, as I know from my experience.
Did I love my wife all during this time? It would seem I couldn't possibly have, or wouldn't I have stopped? That's a hard question. I tried incessantly to stop. I must have thrown out my porn and repented and finally stepped into the light hundreds of times, always to find myself, a few weeks or days or hours later, back in the same pit. When I could think sanely about what I was doing, I was desperate to repent, for myself, my wife, my kids, my God. But for 30 years, I couldn't. I'm really convinced of the truth that addicts can't get better alone. It seems crazy. It seems selfish and mean and undisciplined and immature to say, well, I couldn't do better. Probably I am all those things, but I couldn't do better. I tried, though, again and again and again and again, even though you would never have thought that if you had seen me fail again and again and again and again.
So did I love my wife? I don't know. As much as I could? All my life, I have protected myself from my own feelings. I've learned with great skill not to know what I feel. All the walls my addiction built up left me in a dry place, feeling very little. I cared for my wife and wanted her to be happy, but I couldn't think of her clearly or feel anything deeply. Emotionally, we were roommates. It was as much as I could love her, though, tragically little as that was.
What could my wife have done to move me into recovery sooner than I found it? Probably very little. I was good at hiding, and until I had suffered enough, I don't think I could have managed the radical surrender and openness recovery requires. I wish I had a word as to how to lead your husbands to see the transparent truth of what they are doing, but I don't.
Is there hope for the addict? Yes, once they're desperate enough. In my own case, I finally reached a point early last spring where I couldn't stand it any longer. My oldest son was leaving for college, and he had never seen me well. I was older than my father at the time of his death, and I had still not grown up. I felt isolated from my wife and kids; I felt judged and rejected by God; I felt I had no place in the Church; I couldn't bring myself to go to confession and say again the same things I had said for decades; I thought it was a scandal for me to approach the sacraments; I was considering suicide. I was out of ideas. At that point, I was finally able to reach out to God and to other people - and both are absolutely necessary - and to admit I was in a hopeless situation. God could save me or not, but I knew I had nothing left. I became willing to listen to God and to others and to do whatever it took, knowing I had nothing left to lose.
I could tell this story more, but I've gone on too long already. The short summary is that in the past 9 months, I've been blessed in ways I could not even have imagined. When forced, finally, to go beyond a formal Christianity to real faith, I've found a God who loves me and on whom I can rely. My wife and I are learning to communicate, to share feelings I didn't know I had, to court one another anew. I'm building relations with the people in my various 12-step groups, and discovering trust and friendship.
A better person than I would not have needed to live in hell for 35 years as an inducement to find these things, but I did need that, and I received the blessing I needed. I have an enormous amount to atone for and to try to repair, but I've been given the miracle of a second chance.
I still have much work to do. In 9 months, I've still had 3 brief slips. I'm still wrestling with fears and isolation. I'm still learning to be open. I'm still powerless. But at the point I became completely desperate and willing to do anything to recover hope was there. So there is hope for me, for us addicts; but for me, that hope had to come at the end of a desperation that couldn't be rushed. Recovery is possible, once you want it more than anything else in your life. If one is still saying, "It's not a problem," or "I'll do it alone," or "My wife will be my accountability partner, because I'm to embarrased to talk to others," or "I'm in control now because now I understand," then I think nothing is happening yet. But once those excuses are finally smashed, then yes, there is a hope I never dreamed existed.
Where is my wife in all this? I have hurt her so much, in so many ways, and yet, she is able to see a new person emerging from the ruins of the old - slowly and uncertainly and with retreats as well as advances. I cried yesterday when I found on her computer desktop Romans 14:4, which says, "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand." I know who that servant is, and I can't even speak my gratitude for her love and faith - faith not in me, but in the Master Who may yet make me stand, as I have never been able to do.
Again, I apologize for posting here at all, for going on so long, and probably for straying from the subject at hand. I hope some bit of this might have made the addict's situation more sensible to somebody; feel totally empowered to tell me to bug off if this was not so.
Tim M.
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captivated
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Posted: Fri Dec 16th, 2005 12:10 pm |
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I don't know how the others feel, but for me, this was very helpful, TimM. Thanks! It also helps me understand that my prayers and seeking God myself really do more than all of my striving. But there does seem to also be some value to drawing boundaries as Praise6 reports she had to do with her husband....asking him to choose. Things can get that desperate and sometimes it seems allowing ungodly behavior to continue right before our eyes and doing nothing but fuss about it is also ungodly, and not speaking the truth in love as God tells us to do. For example, feeling like we're helpless and looking the other way when a spouse has porn. mags in the house instead of pitching them ourselves if he won't get rid of them.......or enabling him to continue to have full access to the computer or porn sites on the tv at home, without hindering this somehow like by placing a block on the computer or even being so radical as to cancel the cable or satellite. When gentle verbal confrontation does not work, sometimes actions will.....or at least they'll protect our children from potentially being harmed by these visualizations as well. We cannot change our husbands, but we can have some say over what he brings into our homes, I think, outside of his own thought life since we cannot control that.
Speaking of feeling low, perhaps TimM or another could help me understand. Last night, I was battling some fear/suspision as my husband took longer than I expected he would for something he had to do which was ministry related. When he arrived home, I did share with him that I was struggling with these sorts of thoughts and feelings, related to what's happened in the past, of course. His response was to get mad.....and to justify his anger, which made me feel even worse. Things have carried over into the morning and I'm still battling with rising above and living in forgiveness towards his harsh treatment of my emotions. I plan to keep seeking God's face, to worship, pray and read the Word.....it's all I know to do....I just don't understand the anger over this and this is not the first we've encountered this sort of situation.
Praying for all here on this site!
captivated
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Peach86
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Posted: Fri Dec 16th, 2005 10:16 pm |
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Hi Captivated - I'm not sure why your husband would be angry. I guess I would hope that with what we wives have gone through that they would be patient with our sometimes overactive thoughts and emotions. It makes me wonder if he's pushing you away (emotionally) with that anger as a guilt response???
I really like (and can relate to) what INDOUBT said:
"Yet, because we're who we are, and because it's so PERSONAL!! we try to take responsibility for it. Because if we're the problem, we can fix that. We can't fix it if it isn't under our control. And that makes us feel REALLY helpless because all we can do is watch our dreams, our loves, our lives, go down the toilet. I know exactly how you feel, and I know that it's one thing to know in your head that it isn't your fault; it's entirely another to feel it in your heart."
After you go through this with your husband (or boyfriend) your whole trust system is just shot. With everyone - friends, family, etc. I felt like I couldn't take anyone at face value because "doesn't everyone lie, cheat and deceive"? It really puts you in a horrible place until you realize that you can't take that responsibility. And like the addict, it can be a daily thing that we have to do before the Lord.
I hope that your suspicions were just that - will be praying for you!
Michelle
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captivated
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Posted: Sat Dec 17th, 2005 09:03 am |
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I've been told to trust behavior, not words, so whether or not my husband has acted out in lust or fantasy, his behavior demonstrated his lack of desire to live in love or care with my emotions as his wife. Anyway, thank you for the input. It was helpful and another reminder that I'm out of control and that it's okay to acknowledge and grieve that my dreams are not reality, but then to take all of this to the One who can be trusted to always tell the truth and always love me/us.....and be a faithful husband to us, no matter what! Thanks again, Peach86. 
captivated
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indoubt
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Posted: Sat Dec 17th, 2005 07:38 pm |
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Absolutely! I agree completely - you must trust actions, and not words. We got where we are by trusting in the words we heard - "I love you." Love doesn't lie, cheat, and deceive; love doesn't ignore the feelings of the person that's being "loved" or hurt that person over and over without doing something to at least TRY not to hurt her. If I believed everything my h tells me, the way I did when I fell in love with him, I'd really have to believe I'm insane. Because his actions tell me that all he cares about or even thinks about, is himself, while his words still tell me he loves me - a lot! and he thinks I'm beautiful and of course he wants me. Even while he mb almost daily and the only time he kisses me is a quick kiss on his way out the door to go to work. Going through this, unfortunately, destroys not only our trust in our mates, our life partners, but in most everyone we come in contact with. If I can't trust the man I've bared my soul to, given my heart and my body to, then who can I trust? You're all right - the only one we can trust completely is God Himself. He will NEVER let us down the way people can. I don't know if I will ever be able to really trust anyone again.
INDOUBT
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indoubt
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Posted: Sat Dec 17th, 2005 07:38 pm |
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Absolutely! I agree completely - you must trust actions, and not words. We got where we are by trusting in the words we heard - "I love you." Love doesn't lie, cheat, and deceive; love doesn't ignore the feelings of the person that's being "loved" or hurt that person over and over without doing something to at least TRY not to hurt her. If I believed everything my h tells me, the way I did when I fell in love with him, I'd really have to believe I'm insane. Because his actions tell me that all he cares about or even thinks about, is himself, while his words still tell me he loves me - a lot! and he thinks I'm beautiful and of course he wants me. Even while he mb almost daily and the only time he kisses me is a quick kiss on his way out the door to go to work. Going through this, unfortunately, destroys not only our trust in our mates, our life partners, but in most everyone we come in contact with. If I can't trust the man I've bared my soul to, given my heart and my body to, then who can I trust? You're all right - the only one we can trust completely is God Himself. He will NEVER let us down the way people can. I don't know if I will ever be able to really trust anyone again.
INDOUBT
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TimM
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Posted: Sat Dec 17th, 2005 11:19 pm |
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Friends,
On reflection, I've finally managed to see the obvious fact that I've been wrong to read postings here, and also wrong to reply, as I did 2 days ago.
To me, one of the great things about these forums is the opportunity they offer for addicts and partners to learn from one another. It's sometimes easier to listen and understand when it's not one's own spouse talking. I hope therefore that as much of our conversation as possible can happen in forums where both groups can participate.
But this is not one of those. You've clearly and politely asked for private conversations not including the likes of me, and I haven't respected that desire. I'm sorry. I was wrong. I'll leave you in peace henceforth.
If there is anything else I can do to help make right my breach of privacy and civility, I hope you will send me a message to that effect.
Again, please accept both my apologies and my hopes that you all find futures of freedom, peace, and joy.
Tim M.
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Peach86
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Posted: Sun Dec 18th, 2005 01:21 pm |
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Hey TimM - Personally, I think your posts were fine. True, when you're in the middle of a storm and it seems like there is no light at the end of the tunnel, you don't want to hear certain things (at least for me I didn't want to hear "I know what you're going through" because sometimes it feels like you're the only one going through it & nobody can understand), but it's good to hear "the other side".
I pray that you continue to grow in your journey and that you will continue to seek the freedom that the Lord has to offer.
Michelle
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indoubt
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Posted: Sun Dec 18th, 2005 10:47 pm |
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I don't mind you posting here. I hope that reading here gives you some idea of what you may have put your wife through; what her feelings and thoughts were/are as she lived/lives through your addiction.
My own feelings for today - I'm sorry, but no matter how much I know in my head that my h's addiction has nothing to do with me, it still hurts my heart to know that he would rather have sex alone with his fantasies than roll over in bed and make love to the woman he supposedly loves more than anything in this world. And it's not like he has a low sex drive; that I could deal with. But he mb daily, and I can't help but take it personally. It's time for me to move on - he doesn't care anything about me or my feelings or needs. It's all about him.
INDOUBT
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Praise6
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Posted: Mon Dec 19th, 2005 12:00 pm |
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indoubt wrote: My own feelings for today - I'm sorry, but no matter how much I know in my head that my h's addiction has nothing to do with me, it still hurts my heart to know that he would rather have sex alone with his fantasies than roll over in bed and make love to the woman he supposedly loves more than anything in this world.
I wonder what sort of scar from the past would prevent a man from being able to make love to his wife. Making love is so intimate and truly requires giving of oneself.
What is holding him back? I am talking from my own experience. I have tremendous intimacy issues. Cuddling with my husband can make me feel sqirmy sometimes. Sex is fine but when he wants to hold me and be intimate with cuddling or a hug, I get restless.
I wonder if this is true of people who turn to porn and reject their spouse. I wonder if the rejection is not really rejection but rather quasi protection.
It still hurts but again it is not your fault that he turns to porn. I had to get that fact to infiltrate every cell of my body. Like you, my head knew it, but my heart tore because there is a piece of me that was hurt so long ago that I feel inadequate.
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indoubt
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Posted: Mon Dec 19th, 2005 04:49 pm |
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I don't know what's going on with this man. I've spoken to the counselor we used to go to and he says that he is totally detaching from all his relationships, not just from me and his daughter, but from God Himself. He's lying to me about all kinds of stuff that isn't even worth lying about. It's as though he's a little kid and thinks he's getting away with something. I'm a little scared - for him, and for me. I think the p is just a symptom of a MUCH bigger problem. I have no idea what to expect from him, and he's admitted that he had an anger problem in his last marriage. I've seen just the tip of that anger (although he went to counseling and has it under control, he says - his answer is to just refuse to talk about anything uncomfortable so he doesn't get angry). I hate the idea of leaving and starting over, but I don't see a whole lot of hope here. It will take a miracle. Our Sunday School teacher and a couple men from our group are coming tonight to do an "intervention" (Hey, they do it for drug and alchohol addicts, why not this?) at my request. It's my last hope. I don't know if anyone can break through the walls he's put up. Please keep us in your prayers. Thanks.
INDOUBT
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captivated
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Posted: Mon Dec 19th, 2005 04:59 pm |
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Indoubt,
I hear your plight and will pray for you about tonight specifically. You are so right when you say it's about more than the porn though. It truly is about deeper woundedness.....and one lie leads to another, which leads to a lifestyle of lying.....possibly even becoming unable to recognize lies from truth. I'll ask God to use this time tonight to bring your husband to the end of himself, truly repent, and find healing and freedom in Him......and to begin to love you, etc..... Don't know you except for here, but I am still so sorry you have had to go through this. It is really tough!
captivated
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indoubt
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Posted: Mon Dec 19th, 2005 05:27 pm |
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Thank you for your prayers. I can't help but think that if I had had any clue at all that our life would be like this, I would not have married him 2 short years ago. This is so totally the opposite of what he led me to believe he is. I think that makes it harder to accept. Thanks again for your prayers.
INDOUBT
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captivated
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Posted: Mon Dec 19th, 2005 06:27 pm |
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I've had some of the same.....things being opposite of what I thought they'd be like in many ways. I am still seeking God for the answers. It is hard. I don't expect my husband to make me happy....only God can fill me, but sometimes he seems to hate me....we've both admitted we wouldn't have married one another if we'd have known how it would be. I keep hoping God will turn things around and give us a testimony....that what we could not do, God can and will, beyond our wildest imagination. He is pursuing help though and our circumstances are a bit different than what you've shared yours are. Maybe tonight will be a wake up call for your husband and he will be willing to work at things. Praying the Spirit of God will open his eyes and heart to see what he's doing to himself and you and what he's missing out on....and what he could loose as a result.
captivated
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mae
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Posted: Thu Dec 22nd, 2005 03:15 am |
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Dear indoubt,
I read your post about your h and It is a mirror image of mine. I have been in the same cycle for 4 years. I am praying for you! I know the pain you are in!
Much Love
Mae
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indoubt
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Posted: Thu Dec 22nd, 2005 01:47 pm |
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Thank you for your prayers. Some men from church performed an intervention of sorts Monday night and apparently my h expressed a "willingness" to change (he's been doing that for the past two years) and they emphasized that it needs to begin now, but I am waiting to see something happen. He did tell them I was "on him" all the time so he was just giving up on everything. Which I know is his impression of reality and not what's really happening, but that's what I have to deal with, is his perception of reality. I see glimpses of the man I married, and I really don't want to leave, but maybe it's the only thing that will wake him up. On the other hand, I think that if I leave, he will stay stuck where he is and he'll continue his life without me. It hurts to think I mean so little to him. I will be praying for you through this holiday season; I can't imagine holding on for another two years unless something begins to change. In Him,
INDOUBT
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guardianangel
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Posted: Wed Jan 4th, 2006 08:17 pm |
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| I did not think that it was my fault from the day I found out. I believe we are all responsible for our own actions. I am no more responsible for my husband's choice to use prostitutes, and most other things and people, than I am for the family he or I were born into, or for the fact that we all make choices. He made his. That is how I deal with it. Your husband or significant other, chooses porn. He lives in a fantasy. Who in their right mind would want pictures when they have the real thing; one that loves them@ You did nothing wrong-don't take the blame for other people's faults, they are not yours. I will pray for you.
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indoubt
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Posted: Fri Jan 6th, 2006 09:19 am |
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Thank you so much for your prayers! God is so awesome. A few of the men from our Bible study group (with whom I had shared what's going on in our marriage) performed an intervention the week before Christmas. I wasn't there - I thought my h would be more honest if I wasn't, because he had gotten into such a habit of lying to me all the time. There were a lot of people praying for us that night, and I'll tell you what, God has performed a miracle! I know we aren't out of the woods entirely, but the Holy Spirit is doing a work in our marriage like you would not believe! My h is attentive - almost the way he was when we met. He's working nights again this week, so we barely have time to say hello when he gets home in the morning and then I have to go to work. Yesterday, he did/said something that really hurt my feelings. When I got home from work, as soon as I came in, he asked if he had hurt my feelings that morning and said he was SORRY! He has not apologized to me for ANYTHING since the first time I found out about his addiction over a year and a half ago. He calls me once or twice a day just to say hello, and he's really listening when I talk to him! As I said, I know we've still got work to do, but I am beginning to see the man I fell in love with and it is so incredible. I had been encouraged for a long time by a lot of other people to leave my h, but I felt that God wanted me to stay and now I'm so glad that I did. Ladies, don't ever give up on God - He still performs miracles! I will keep you posted....
No longer INDOUBT
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captivated
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Posted: Fri Jan 6th, 2006 02:42 pm |
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Amen! So glad to hear what the Lord's been doing with you and your husband, "no longer in doubt!" I was thinking of you and wondering how things have been going just this past week! Thanks so much for letting us know! God is so wonderful and amazing......such a spouse to us....so near and tenderhearted to the brokenhearted!!! You were "done" last we heard and He took that and is turning it around! ...ashes to beauty! Praise God! Keep us posted as you continue this journey!
With care,
captivated
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