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Mark37
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 08:06 pm |
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truthseeker wrote: Hi Mark37,
You said, "Articles of clothing to be avoided include: Dresses reaching to the knees or trailing on the floor, low necklines, low backs, sleeveless blouses, transparent
material, tight apparel, and unhealthy and ill fitting footwear. Following fashion is a fruitless occupation." I'm curious as to where and/or how you derived this list, and I'm not sure I understand the dress length suggestions. Are you saying as short as the knee and above? Other than safety in walking, especially stairs, what does a floor length dress have to do with modesty? What does footware have to do with modesty? "Low" and "tight" are very subjective terms, as could be "transparent," varying from one woman to another woman wearer, and one man to another viewer. Does a top have to have some portion of sleeve verticle, or are you talking about spaghetti straps? Should we find antique swimware, or avoid beach/pool altogether? And this doesn't even mention shorts? Forbidden, fingertip length? You need not explain further, as my main point is that the list resembles legalism to me. Are you telling us that you have never had your eyes linger too long or had less than appropriate thoughts about a woman who was thus atired? (No answer needed.) Just where does our responsibility as women to dress modestly end, and where does the responsibility of men not to lust begin? And how is it that men dress that cause women to lust? Please understand that I am not saying that anything should go, but that defining it concretely is very difficult, in my opinion alone.
TruthSeeker
I'm sure most women know their intentions when choosing clothing for themselves. Its a rather no brainer. We all want to look as nice as we can and there is nothing wrong with that. I think your reading too much into it. You know by wearing something if it is going to send the wrong impression of who you are. There is nothing legalistic about it. Dressing in high heels, hotpants, and a high cut shirt like a hooker is giving a message and trying to overly attract attention is it not? In these matters if we examine ourselves and bring it before God in an honest fashion we will know the right thing to do. We need to ask ourselves, what would Jesus have us do to express ourselves? Howe can I best represent Him by what I where and how I conduct myself? Just like music. I think heavy metal music or rock n roll music with Christian lyrics is a perversion of expressing God. Is changing the lyrics somehow taking away the rebellious form of music that is just that, rebellious? I find Heather Veitch's myspace a bit extreme. You go to it and suddenly hear heavy metal music. You look at somew of her friends who posted very pornographic pictures of themselves. Is that how Jesus would have us express ourselves? Especially a mother of small children. Its one thing to witness to sinners. Its another thing to go along with what they are doing.
1 Corinthians 5:11
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Nothing surprises me anymore. Churches are becoming very liberal especially in places like California. The most popular churches are often the most liberal. Instead of drawing away from the world they are uniting with it.
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Mark37
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 08:50 pm |
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| Another way you might look at it Truth Seeker is through this example. Lets say you are single, christian, and looking for a christian man with high morals. How would you express yourself through dress to attract someone like that? Would you wear halter tops, high heels, and a mini to church? Yes you definitely would attract men, but would you attract the right one? What kind of message would that give out? Would you not be inciting lust? Yes there is a point where a man's lust is HIS problem and you have no control over it, but there is also a point where dressing in a certain way is contrary to basic christian principles.
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seekinghealing
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 10:13 pm |
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Sorry if anything that follows triggers anything. I just wanted to share my opinion on this topic...
Just wanted to say that I am a member of Shelley's forum. I think it is a very helpful site. Yes, everyone is there together. I think there is good in that. The men who are SA get to see the horrible struggles that these former stars deal with and that convicts them more not to look at porn. Having a picture of their face as an avatar doesn't really seem like much of a trigger, IMO. It reminds us they are people, real normal people, who we hurt when we look at porn. I am a female sex addict and abuse survivor. I was on my way into the industry until I found her site. You will find there, that among women, those who struggle with SA and those who enter the industry often have sexual abuse in their history. This connects us together and helps us recover. I realize men may have different struggles, but they are often victims of abuse as well. I think Shelley's site is doing great things for the kingdom and it is only a start. I believe that all sexual immorality is related. It may present itself a little different in different people, but its roots are the same and discussing those in the presence of people who lie among the entire spectrum of sexual immorality is the only way to stop it on all fronts...of course if it causes you to fall then don't go to her site, but I still think it is a very educational site. I have never read any posts that seem inappropriate. So far, I have seen nothing but good. Maybe a man from her site needs to share their opinion...there are many there.
On the subject of modesty and JC's girls-you have to understand how difficult a process it is for a girl to rebuild her self-esteem and discover who she truly is in the Lord. Healing can take ten years. A woman will not go from a porn actress to wearing long skirts and shirts that cover everything overnight. These women are trying to be okay with their natural femininity, discover their true beauty in Christ, be okay with
wearing a sleeveless tee and not feel like a sex object as so many other women freely can do and they are trying to still minister to those in the industry without appearing judgemental. I don't think we can judge them for walking this fine line very carefully. They may slip up now and then, but I believe they are doing MUCH MORE good than any harm. If you are a man and seeing their sites triggers you, then don't go there. There sites are mostly for women anyway. That is their target. But Shelley's site is for everyone and I don't recall see any pictures of women like that-only Shelley as her beautiful self with her family.
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truthseeker
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Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 06:17 am |
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Hi Mark37,
As I said, I was not looking to define black and white, but to note that there is gray area. Times differ in definition, yes christian definition, of modesty, and different cultures associate different things with being sexual. For example, my rather modest one piece swimsuit would have been shocking to my grandmother. You are quite right that the attitude of the heart is very significant, for both men and women. I chatted with my H about this, and his comment was that modesty has the allure of the hidden-- trashy doesn't really attract him. I think, in some cases, young ladies are just seeking to be "fashionable", but haven't been taught and/or experienced just how males tend to function. A piece of advice I liked from a seminar I attended was to not even dress our pre-school girls in things we would not find acceptable once they have begun to mature physically, as they will not deal well with the perceived double standard. At what point in my middle-age spread must I get rid of that old, comfy sweater that conforms to my form more than it use to?
Then there is the question of porn. What, exactly, is it? I do not have a problem with my teenage sons wanting to go to the beach, being fully aware that the girls swimsuits will vary widely in modesty, (or lack there of,) but would object highly to them having a swimsuit calendar or Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue at home. As I have told them more than once, what they come across in the course of everyday life, and what they choose to deliberately put in front of their eyes, are two vastly different things.
I will have to differ with you also in being able to see gray areas in music. There again, it is the attitude of the heart. Musical styles have come and gone, instrumentation has changed, but "Jesus saves" is still true, no matter how you accompany it, or with what rhythm. Being in the world, but not of it, is something most believers struggle with today, and it is ticklish to try and define that for one another. Salt in the shaker seasons nothing, and a lamp shop will only help those who happen to wander through the door from the darkness.
TruthSeeker
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Mark37
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 03:47 am |
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truthseeker wrote: Hi Mark37,
As I said, I was not looking to define black and white, but to note that there is gray area. Times differ in definition, yes christian definition, of modesty, and different cultures associate different things with being sexual. For example, my rather modest one piece swimsuit would have been shocking to my grandmother. You are quite right that the attitude of the heart is very significant, for both men and women. I chatted with my H about this, and his comment was that modesty has the allure of the hidden-- trashy doesn't really attract him. I think, in some cases, young ladies are just seeking to be "fashionable", but haven't been taught and/or experienced just how males tend to function. A piece of advice I liked from a seminar I attended was to not even dress our pre-school girls in things we would not find acceptable once they have begun to mature physically, as they will not deal well with the perceived double standard. At what point in my middle-age spread must I get rid of that old, comfy sweater that conforms to my form more than it use to?
Then there is the question of porn. What, exactly, is it? I do not have a problem with my teenage sons wanting to go to the beach, being fully aware that the girls swimsuits will vary widely in modesty, (or lack there of,) but would object highly to them having a swimsuit calendar or Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue at home. As I have told them more than once, what they come across in the course of everyday life, and what they choose to deliberately put in front of their eyes, are two vastly different things.
I will have to differ with you also in being able to see gray areas in music. There again, it is the attitude of the heart. Musical styles have come and gone, instrumentation has changed, but "Jesus saves" is still true, no matter how you accompany it, or with what rhythm. Being in the world, but not of it, is something most believers struggle with today, and it is ticklish to try and define that for one another. Salt in the shaker seasons nothing, and a lamp shop will only help those who happen to wander through the door from the darkness.
TruthSeeker
Nice comments and I appreciate you taking the time to type. I am a member of modern society and I don't expect all woman to dress like nun or an Amish woman. I DO think that God does expect us to have some type of morality and standards for our lives though. I remember once a young woman came to church and was dressed in a high cut dress and looked quite sexy if you will. Some old hag took her aside and chastised her for it and she never came back again. This really upset me and I let others in the congregation know about it. This WAS NOT the way to deal with it. Could have been a little more delicate with a potentially new convert. God knows the intentions of the heart and that is what is most important. I found in my Christian walk the more I look at others the more self-righteous I feel and then I end up leaving the church because everyone starts looking like a hypocrite. I end up seeing the mote in my own eye when all is said and done.
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Mark37
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Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2007 08:15 pm |
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| What about these styles Truth Seeker. They are from Shelley Lubben and sold by "Christian" Heather Veitch from JCs girls. What about the especially tight fitting one that shows off the breasts. Is this appropriate for womans wear? Last edited on Thu Apr 12th, 2007 02:18 pm by truthseeker
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Mark37
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Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2007 08:16 pm |
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| Even you can become a "Holy Hottie."
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TimM
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Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2007 08:45 pm |
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At the suggestion of another member, I'm editing this post away. It was, under the circumstances, remarkably eirenic even at the first; but my friend is right that it might become even more eirenic by sinking deeper into stillness.
Tim M.
Last edited on Sun Apr 8th, 2007 09:52 pm by
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TimM
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Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 10:36 pm |
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Having attained a sense of serenity I lacked yesterday, I'll just point Mark to truthseeker's thread, "Grace" on the "Other Topics" board.
Tim M.
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TROtoddUBLE
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Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 11:16 pm |
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TimM,
I've read a few of the recent postings, and have come to the conclusion, that most of Mark37 postings, would tend to allure those of us trying to find freedom FROM porn, towards it. The language, suggestions, even the link to a clothing ad.
I thank you for suggesting a move.
I would also like to amend a posting I made, on March 13th.
My reference to, "walking by a bar" analogy, refers to the society we live in, 6.7 times during any given 30 minutes sitcom there's some sort of sexual situation (I can not give you the reference on this stat) but it was recently.We live in a culture where sex sells, sex rocks, sex lives.
And for those of us who are on a recovery (and will always be) you need to find a Shield (Eph.6:11-18) when these, "walk by a bar" situations arise.
This is NOT to say, we should try to build up a callus towards porn, to a point where we don't see it as sin
Lord, Create in me a clean heart, and renew a Right Spirit within me.
Todd
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Gettinbetter
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 01:04 am |
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Mark,
I have to question your use of quotations on the word "Christian" Heather Veitch. That seems to indicate that you are questioning her faith, whether or not she is indeed a Christian. Not your place, friend. Not your place. You may not agree with some things other folks do, but it is just not your place, my place or anyone else's place to question someone's standing with God.
Take a look at Romans 14:4. Those gals, Heather Veitch and a bunch of women with her are reaching out to women in the sex industry. If they came dressed like the Salvation Army those women would tune them out.
Then take a look at 1 Cor 9:20-23 where Paul says "I became all things to all men, that I may by all means save some."
I thank God for JC's Girls, Heather, Shelley, and all of them that are doing everything they can to lead other's to Christ.
You may not agree with all of their means and methods, but let's remember not to be the one to cast the first stone.
In Christ,
Matt
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RainySunShine
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 04:15 am |
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Mark37 wrote: What about these styles Truth Seeker. They are from Shelley Lubben and sold by "Christian" Heather Veitch from JCs girls. What about the especially tight fitting one that shows off the breasts. Is this appropriate for womans wear?is this some kind of joke ......????
I may be new but I cannot belive that a site like this exists , and Shelly Lubben should be ashamed of this. Her original site is unbeliveable to Her picture gallery? Is this a remorseful former porn actress. I am just mortified. She has some serious attention/neediness issues.
I am very disappointed , no wonder things are the way they are
no more to say
Last edited on Thu Apr 12th, 2007 02:14 pm by truthseeker
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TimM
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 01:43 pm |
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For obvious reasons, I haven't followed the link here, but I don't have good feelings about it after Mark's description. Is there any reason still to have the link on this board, or could onw of the people with those powers remove it both from Mark's post and from RainySunShine's? To me, it seems like a temptation to us addicts and a discouragement to newcomers.
Incidentally, welcome RSS! This board is normally remarkably safe and civil. It's too bad that you arrived in the middle of a minor melt-down that is hopefully now ending or over. Do keep coming back and participating.
Tim M.
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RainySunShine
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 04:31 pm |
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Well I need to work on my technique for quoting 
I was overall not impressed with Shelly Lubbens site but the HolyHottie t shirts and tank tops was almost comical. It would be funny if it were not so sad and sacraligious for lack of a better description. 
I am not sure if it would trigger a sex addict or not , maybe you/others should look and if it really is inappropriate or triggering for you then maybe someone should address the owners/sponsers/promoters of this product.
I do feel it is at the very least in very poor poor taste to have shirts that say what they do on them and try make money doing it
Ugh this all makes me so !! * insert inappropriate word here * 
ciao
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TimM
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 06:06 pm |
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The issue of what's triggering is always a little hard, because people who aren't addicts have trouble believing how little it takes to set some of us off. I'm not in a position to investigate without risk, though, and I work very hard to say no if there is any doubt. So I have no opinion on the site, but I'm not going there. Perhaps this is an unnecessarily restrictive policy, but it works for me.
Tim M.
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seekinghealing
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Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 05:52 am |
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| I understand how little it takes sometimes to trigger something. I am glad the links were removed, but I am also glad we are still talking about things like this. We will never be able to avoid all triggers with the world we live in, so we have to work on ourselves inside, so we can focus on the beauty of others inside and not outside.
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